HOLMAN WILLIAMS in action, on film.

Trying to be cool? On the contrary and all that ****? Not about that. It's about this:

Charley Burley

Cocoa Kid
Jimmy Leto
Nate Bolden
Antonio Fernandez
Jack Chase (x3)
Aaron Wade (x3)
Joe Carter
Billy Smith (x2)
Bert Lytell

Billy Soose
Holman Williams (x3)
Archie Moore
Fritzie Zivic (x2)

--

Holman Williams

Battling Gizzy
Lew Massey
Tony Falco
Cocoa Kid (x3)
Slugger White
Bobby Pacho
Saverio Turiello
Jack Portney
Steve Mamakos
Izzy Jannazzo
Joe Legon
Antonio Fernandez (x2)
Jimmy Leto
Jose Basora (x3)
Kid Tunero (x3)
Joe Carter (x2)
Lloyd Marshall (x2)
Eddie Booker
Steve Belloise
Jack Chase (x4)
Paul Lewis
Aaron Wade (x2)
Bert Lytell
George Henry
Bob Satterfield
Henry Hall

Charley Burley (x3)
Archie Moore

While we're at it, I'll post a couple of others for comparison:

Ike Williams

Lefty LaChance (x2)
Wes Mouzon
Slugger White
Johnny Bratton (x3)
Dave Castilloux
Sonny West
Ronnie James
Lester Felton
Willie Roache
Johnny Hutchinson
Lulu Constantino
Joe Miceli
Bobby Ruffin
Bill Speary
Buddy Garcia
Gene Burton (x2)
Ralph Zannelli (x2)
Jesse Flores
Joey Peralta
Willie Joyce
Freddie Dawson (x3)
Maxie Berger
Juan Zurita
Tony Pellone
Rudy Cruz (x2)
Nick Moran
Enrique Bolanos (x3)

Sammy Angott (x2)
Bob Montgomery
Kid Gavilan
Beau Jack (x3)

--

Jose Napoles

Angel Robinson Garcia
Bunny Grant
Tony Perez (x2)
Baby Vasquez (x2)
LC Morgan (x3)
Alfredo Urbina (x2)
Carlos Hernandez
Adolph Pruitt (x2)
Eugenio Espinoza
Herbie Lee
Leroy Roberts
Eddie Pace
Ernie Lopez (x2)
Edwin Mack
Manuel Gonzalez
Billy Backus
Jean Josselin
Hedgemon Lewis (x2)
Ralph Charles
Roger Menetrey
Clyde Gray
Horacio Saldano
Armando Muniz (x2)

Eddie Perkins
Curtis Cokes (x2)
Emile Griffith

--

All fighters listed were at some point (mostly around the time they fought) rated in the RING's annual top ten. In bold are Hall of Famers.

 

You juts had to get Williams and Napoles in, didnt you?

 

I'm so ****ing sorry :huh

Time after time I see Burley rated above both those two.

Don't like those comparisons? Here are some more:

Joe Louis

Stanley Poreda
Charley Massera
Patsi Perroni
Lee Ramage (x2)
Natie Brown (x2)
Primo Carnera
King Levinsky
Charley Retzlaff
Al Ettore
Bob Pastor (x2)
Tommy Farr
Nathan Mann
Tony Galento
Arturo Godoy (x2)
Johnny Paychek
Al McCoy
Red Burman
Gus Dorazio
Abe Simon (x2)
Tony Musto
Buddy Baer (x2)
Lou Nova
Tami Mauriello
Cesar Brion (x2)
Freddie Beshore
Omelio Agramonte (x2)
Lee Savold

Max Baer
Jack Sharkey
Jim Braddock
Max Schmeling
John Henry Lewis
Billy Conn (x2)
Jersey Joe Walcott (x2)
Jimmy Bivins

--


Marvin Hagler

Sugar Ray Seales
Eugene Hart
Willie Monroe (x2)
Mike Colbert
Kevin Finnegan (x2)
Bobby Watts
Bennie Briscoe
Loucif Hamani
Marcos Geraldo
Alan Minter
Fulgencio Obelmejias (x2)
Vito Antuofermo
Mustafa Hamsho (x2)
Tony Sibson
Wilford Scypion
Juan Roldan
John Mugabi

Roberto Duran
Thomas Hearns

--

John Henry Lewis

Yale Okun (x2)
Fred Lenhart (x2)
Lou Scozza
Norman Conrad
Young Firpo
Tony Shucco (x2)
Bob Olin (x3)
Tiger Jack Fox
Jock McAvoy
George Nichols (x2)
Charley Massera
Bob Godwin
Al Gainer (x2)
Red Burman
Al Ettore (x2)
Patsy Perroni
Johnny Risko
Elmer Ray
Jimmy Adamick

Jim Braddock
Maxie Rosenbloom (x2)
Len Harvey

 

You have to factor in dominance too, Burley got the better of their series overall. Under modern scoring Burley probably wins their 1st due to the KDs, which he lost at the time. Holman's win in their 5th fight over Burley was close and controversial, the NC Burley was getting the better of.

Burley's record against Cocoa Kid is much better than Holman's, Holman lost his series to the Keed 2-2-9, where as Burley won his series 1-1-0, dominating their first fight

Burley completely dominated Moore, Holman won a close fight and was stopped against Moore. Holman did better against Marshall overall, but Burley went to an SD against Marshall. Holman has many more losses (30 out of 188 fights compared to 12 out of 98 ), also most of Burley's losses were close and controversial. Burley was never stopped, Holman was stopped by Moore and Burley.

Burley also has wins over Hogue (who beat Moore and Booker twice each),Aaron Wade, Oakland Billy Smith and he also got the better of Abrams in their draw.

So while Holman's resume is undoubtedly deeper, he doesn't in my view 'definitely deserves to be rated above Charley Burley'

 

You don't need to convince me that Burley was slightly better, because I agree with that notion anyway. It's quite obvious, for as much praise as Williams received, it was Burley who was generally regarded as uncrowned champion throughout his career. But he was surely no Sam Langford - I rate fighters by what they did, and Burley didn't do that much, for various reasons. Williams beat a more varied and numerous crowd. Taking it to extremes; I couldn't rate Rodrigo Valdez over Gene Fullmer on a middleweight list despite me believing Valdez would have cracked his skull open, because Fullmer did more at the weight.

But anyway, it's Burley over Napoles or Williams that gets me. Or Gavilan or Griffith. It's criminal and totally undeserved.

 

I agree Burley is overrated, as far as his record goes. I was joking with the Napoles and Williams thing.

 

Okay, cool.

Realistically... I'm rating Napoles and I. Williams around #21-26 alongside Griffith and Gavilan. Hagler, about #35-#38, seriously, and J. H. Lewis floats around his zone. McLarnin, #17-20. H. Williams above Burley at #50 and #53, or something like that.

1. Harry Greb
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Ray Robinson
4. Sam Langford
5. Benny Leonard
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Willie Pep
8. Roberto Duran
9. Archie Moore
10. Barney Ross
11. Joe Gans
12. Bob Fitzsimmons

 

1 thing I don't understand is people ranking fighters soley on who they beat, without factoring in dominance or their losses. Which seems to be what you're implying

Another point is you're valuing quantity over quality. Burley beat more Hall of Fame fighters than Holman. Even though Cocoa Kid and Lloyd Marshall should really have made it to the Hall too. Burley's performances against the best were overall better even if Holman did manage to rank more top 10 rated opponents in his time

 

What irks me somewhat regarding arguments around these oldtimer greats is the claim that fighter A beat fighter B when they fought each other half a dozen times and fighter B won 5 of them. Yes, if two fighters meet 10 times, each is going to have victory over the other. But how important is a single or two victories when the other fighter wins the overwhelming majority of the matches?

 

I know it's nice to be sarcastic and ooze superiority in every sense, but sometimes it's nice to give a decent argument.

Burley didn't accomplish that much in comparison to the greats he's rated alongside or above. This is my whole point.

I conducted my own alternative research a while back and that took me a good few hours of solid trawling to come up with highlights of records for various fighters. It is not the be-all and end-all, but an interesting reference. But that's obvious. There is no use disrespecting a tool like this, as although you can't read everything from it, you also can read a lot from it. I used it to highlight the fact that perhaps Burley didn't have quite as dense a record as some might think after reading myriad implications that he was one of the greatest ever. In my opinion, this is simply not true.

Perhaps Burley was one of the best. But he was certainly not one of the most accomplished and this should be taken into consideration. Like I said, for an uncrowned champion, he was certainly no Sam Langford.

I've long been a fan of Holman Williams since I read, at a young age, that he taught Joe Louis a lot of what he knew, was a technical marvel, and that due to the weakness in his hands he had turned himself into an uppercut specialist. Infact I think I was a fan of Holman Williams long before I'd even heard of Carlos Monzon or Marvin Hagler.

That said, there may be some bias floating around. Whatever. Burley performed better as a general rule, but let us remember that Williams was slightly older and definitely more active. As evidenced, he also beat a larger quantity of rated fighters.

I rate him slightly ahead, but neither should be hanging around a top twenty list.

 

Fear not, as Walker stands nearby alongside the next group; Canzoneri, McLarnin, Ali, Louis etc.

Imagine how I feel when Napoles is #30 and Burley is #10.