HOLMAN WILLIAMS in action, on film.

Just remember how I'm rating fighters. It's by what they did. One simple reason for this is that I couldn't possibly rate anyone I haven't seen on film by their head-to-head ability. Generally the two go hand-in-hand, but sometimes not.

 

Excuse me? There are two magnificent pieces of film out there demonstrating exactly why I maintain that Ike Williams was one of the best punchers of all time. Gatica & Jack were absolutely torn apart in spectacular fashion - secondary sources my arse. These knockouts don't even need any argument behind them - both are at least as impressive as anything Ray Robinson or Joe Louis ever did.

 

I don't understand the revision on Williams' and Archie Moores punching power.

Nowadays it's 'they were clever and rounded'. I think it's clear to see they both possessed a sizeable dig as well.

I don't put Williams in the Hearns/Foster/Jackson/Muangsurin bracket but it's clear to see he was a massive puncher.

 

I'm not insinuating you're saying anything to the contrary, other than the fact those two (first examples that spring to mind) seem to get complimented more for their ability to draw the shot than the fact they had a sizeable dig.

Of course, also very complimentary, but I think their pure power might get a little understated.

I will add that Beau Jack was so f'n durable, I'd say him standing up to that shellacking is more a testament to what a tank he was rather than Williams not being dynamite. That barrage was snapping his head all over the place, if all we had of Trinidad was the Campas and Reid fights we might be forgiven for not thinking he was that calibre of puncher.

I also give props for sitting Gavilan on his arse. Not an easy thing to do of course.

 

McGrain, serious question (and knowing you you'll know exactly where I'm coming from):

Would you say Williams is more of a Mosley level of puncher? Big dig, but not likely to land one punch that leaves his opponent comatose? **** comparison I know, but the ref' jumping in to save Margarito came to mind.

 

Glad you saw what I was trying to get at, I'll stress again, I don't think Mosley is anywhere near Ike's level.

Just trying to find a middle ground between accumulative (JCC) and devastating (Robbo') and Mosley is a good shout for that IMO.

I don't put Ike on the highest pedestal for pure power either. But in terms of all round application he has to rank as one of the best composite (;-)) punchers of all time IMO.

 

Your rating system ignores losses, ignores H2H that actually happened and ignores the standards of performances in wins. Cool rating system bro

 

And I bet that due to this reasoning you wouldn't rate Henry Armstrong as one of the greatest punchers because he didn't appear to have one punch concussive power - even though he knocked out twenty seven people in a row and scored fifty one knockouts in sixty one fights over three weights in that three year period he had. Let me know.

To know how much weight is carried by a victory, you have to look at the victim and the way he was beaten. Beau Jack was very strong and very durable and Williams just destroyed him. It was a solid battle going into the sixth round with Beau Jack trailing but still well in the fight. At the beginning of that last round, Williams opened up Jack and staggered him pretty much with just his left hand.

If you don't think the following assault was an extremely impressive display of punching then I have to question your credibility. Power is worth nothing next to ferocity, and Williams was really going for it. Maybe more than anyone else on film - just relentless. What exact state Jack was in during and after the attack should matter little as long as you know he was rendered completely helpless by Williams' punches, and if that could happen to such a durable lightweight then it could have happened to any of them.

Bratton - naturally bigger than Williams - was forced back and had his jaw broken. As if you think this is a bad mark. Unbelievable.

Of course, the Gatica knockout is in another league. Power, speed, accuracy, combination punching... Brief, but as spectacular as any knockout ever.

Williams seemed not to have always been in puncher mode, fought some tough fighters and probably carried a few on purpose, but as I maintain, when he really went for it, he was up there with any big hitter. If by a combination of aggression and speed instead of power, so be it. Point is, he was known at the time to be extremely dangerous and the film evidence we have forcefully backs up that consensus view. And by all accounts, the best stuff isn't even on film; the stoppages of Montgomery, Bolanos and Larkin.

Sometimes fighters' knockout records will reflect their power. Sometimes not. Dick Tiger, Mickey Walker, Tony Canzoneri... Ike Williams.

 

Yeah course mate. Want to know how many holes everyone could pick in your lists? Post 'em.