HOLMAN WILLIAMS in action, on film.

That was my entire point. You said that the films back your position, i'm telling you they don't. No, it's not a matter for opinion, it's a matter of fact.

Remember? This is how the whole discussions started. If we only had the films of Robinson you mention, we would not rank Robinson so highly as a power puncher based purely upon the films.

You now do admit that his power seemed underwhelming in that film then? Because on the previous page you seemed to be claiming it as evidence making him seem one of the 3 greatest punchers in boxing history:

I don't think these two opinions jive?

I've explained this to you already. Again:

one of the very greatest punchers in hisotry would have been able to get him out of there, yes. As i've said, I don't see him breaking the guy's jaw as evidence of his near unparalleled ring punching any more than I see Norton's breaking of Ali's jaw as the same thing. I don't think Miranda is one of the greatest punchers in history either. I do think that his failure to force Abraham out once he'd broken his jaw is descriptive of his limited punching power and execution.

I absolutely rate Jackson over Louis as a pure puncher, and I think it is possible to make a case for ranking him above Louis in composite terms his power is so freakishly good.

Once again, he's a good example of what one of the hardest punchers in history looks like - notably a harder hitter than Ike Williams based upon the film.

 

Yes, Williams punches very well in combination like a goodly number of other fighters, and he looks good doing it like a goodly number of other fighters.

A goodly number of other fighters, including Robinson look better/as good as Williams whilst demonstrating on film demonstrable KO power with one punch. Willimas has never displayed this, and by your own admission (for the benefit of whoever), looks underwhelming in terms of pure power upon delivery, especially when compared to the genuinely great punchers on film.

So whether you are talking about punching in terms of pure power or in composite terms, there is no real argument for putting Williams in the top five on film or on his record. What I said to you was that you are not using "facts" to rank Ike Williams in this regard because it just isn't possible. Or rather it is possible, but wholly unconvincing, for reasons mentioned.

There are loads and loads of fighters like this. To say that it is demonstrably true that Ike Williams did this better than all but four fighters based upon the 7 minutes of footage you've offered up is misguided at best.

Both of these men show more power on film and have higher KO percentages.

Secondary accounts are absolutely crucial to shoring up any arguments regarding Ike's place on a top 5 all time punchers list, which was my point.

Using secondary sources it would be perfectly plausible to make the case for Kid Lavigne as a beter puncher than Ike Williams. In fact with a gun to my head that would be my guess.

There are thousands of broken jaws in boxing history. Holding it up as reasoning for ranking him #5 all time is what is ridiculous.

This is not true because there are supporting films for Louis and there aren't for Ike. You've argued that the footage existing indicates he is a top 5 puncher of all time and I am telling you why this is not the case. But yes, the fact that Louis didn't KO Baer inspite of the fact that he landed dozens of power punches on his chin DOES speak to the limitations of Louis's power and i DO hold it against him. It's not "critisising him." It's using the available information to form an unbiased opinion. Based upon the Baer-Louis footage I draw certain conclusions about Louis as a puncher.

Based upon the phenomemal damage Shavers did Holmes with one punch versus the lack of concussion Louis rendered upon Baer with multiple flush punches begins a tentative conclusion that Shavers hit harder than Louis, for example. A crude but instructive example.

That's not it. As is the case with Louis-Baer, certain conclusions can be drawn, if you're interested in getting to the truth. Landing flush power punches on an opponent with a broken jaw is not something I would expect Tyson, Zarate, Robinson, or any of the truly elite punchers to do without more dramatic results. It's arguable, but based upon the film you've presented, there's only one logical conclusion.

There's no basis for such a high ranking.

Williams met many top lightweights whilst putting together his KO % of less than 40. And it's not all in the application at all, taken to its natural conclusion this argument includes every single facet of fighting. Durability and chin are the most obvious examples as it is impossible to KO the best middleweights if you have been knocked out yourself. Ike's superior chin makes him more likely to KO the best lw's, but it certainly doesn't make him the better puncher.

As i've already said, Jackson is the harder puncher p4p, possibly THE hardest puncher p4p, in composite terms it is far more arguable. But it is arguable.

 

I have considered that incredible notion. I even coined a phrase for it that has had some legs on the forum, I call it "composite punching."

There are loads of fighters like that, and Williams is certainly one of them.

It doesn't stop your ludicruos claim that those few minutes of film support the notion that Williams is the fifth best of them of all time, (or even the fiftieth best) from being ludicrous. And as we've seen, pretty much undefendable.