Holmes missed out on Page. Not a huge deal.

Mate you've come up with tripe after tripe and refuse to see much of anything even when it slaps you in the face and calls you Sally. You are so far biased toward Holmes it's beyond repair. Like the monster that is Mendoza you keep trying to turn the flow off the topic and lie about and blur timelines.

It's a shame, because i have seen you hit many excellent points on other topics.

 

People say Holmes ducked Page in 1984, but Holmes did go on to stop "Smith & Bey" as well as struggle big time with a green, but well tuned Carl "The Lie" Williams in 1984 & 1985..... Them dude's were NOT exactly pussies......

MR.BILL

 

1983 Bill, 1983.

 

Alright... Had Holmes agreed to fight Page in the beginning they would've done the tango in Nov. 1983, but Holmes canned his belt and went and fought Marvis Frazier instead for pretty good NBC TV money.....

Come March '84, Page around 238 pounds gets out-hustled over 12 rds by a 220 pound Spoon..... Page gets pissed on HBO and says, "I'm tired of this Bull****." Page lost........ Page went ahead and lost to Bey later on too...

Holmes beat a tuff, yet skillfully limited Bones Smith in Nov. '84.... A good HBO win.....

I have all this stuff on video......

MR.BILLhat

 

I have no doubt you've got it all on video Bill, and much much more. I've got most of it on dvd, tho quality in various bouts can be average.

 

Its too bad Frank Bruno didn't manage to hold on to his lead over Smith and last the distance... A 22-0 Bruno would have made a better scalp than a 14-1 Smith, just by record alone.. The Coetzee unification could have helped things a bit too had it come off...

I'm torn on my views of those mid 80's politics... I can certainly agree with those who bemoan the fact that Holmes never fought the better challengers of the latter end of his reign like Thomas and Page, but also concur with some who claim that too much is made of his side stepping them, and that there may have been conflicting issues that got in the way of those fights coming into fruition.

I'm taking middle ground... Holmes' reign could have been improved through facing the cream of the crop, but his legacy still remains in great standing with or without them...

 

Not it wasn't. Holmes was still recognized by the WBC as champ for the Frazier fight - the WBC just refused to acknowledge the fight as a title match. Holmes gave up his title at a WBC conference at the end of the year - after the Frazier fight.

 

Gotcha.

 

THIS^^^^^:deal

 

I'm also certain Bob Lee and his crooks had already contacted "The Homer" about giving him a brand new belt from a new group called the IBF....


MR.BILL

 

There is a result from not facing the stern challenges that had to be factored in. The wear and tear factor. Lots more rounds and significantly greater absorption of punishment.

Larry showed quite a bit of wear and by 83. Heck, I thought 82 had and the Cooney fight was not the guy at his best a year earlier. Far cry from the 78 version that fought Ossie or Evangelista. 84 saw him going much longer against guys like Smith and Bey and he'd have had a picnic with those guys 6 years earlier. He was having to dig deep to win & years earlier he would not have dug whatsoever against that competition.Deterioration of reflexes from age and wear and tear.

If you insert some of the names mentioned for potential fights that didn't happen, it does nothing except to reduce those reflexes further. And earlier, and not 83, but when? There was zero punishment Larry absorbed in fights like Jones and Zanon and Ledoux and all those others.

Insert names like Page. Dokes. Norton rematch in 79. Weaver rematch. Those are definately winnable fights and Holmes may win them all. The problem is the physical toll and deterioration added with each fight. Then that guy shows up 1 night and he loses to a Thomas or a Witherspoon rematch or gets caught by a Coetzee.


And that's all Mike Spinks got when he beat Larry in 85. A version with diminished reflexes and he just had the experience and tools to capitalize. I don't even think Mike Spinks is even competitive with the guy that faced Evangelista & is mismatched.

I am just saying Larry gets beat 2 or 3 years earlier by somebody on that not fought list of defenses because of a more rapid deterioration. Like Spinks, it could have been any one of those hot and cold guys that show up with their A game on the night of the fight.


What I don't like as a fan is that we didn't see those fights. Larry Holmes is not giving up that belt easily. He'll give everything even in a loss. I wanted to see those type of back and forth competitive, and potentially terrific heavyweight fights back then. The kinds were young up and comers of high caliber are digging deep and Holmes is digging deep. They would have been some terrific fights because of the skills and competitive nature of Holmes. I just did not like what we were sold instead and had to endure.

 

Indeed I wonder what the politics of the time was about. Holmes certainly didn't like working with Don King and who can blame him?

 

Page could've fought Holmes in May of 1983 since Holmes fought Tim Spoon after Greg Page decisioned Renaldo Snipes on the undercard in that Vegas PPV event..... It was possible had the match-making been different, but Spoon already had a questionable dec. win over Snipes from '82 and nobody was hot to see them tango again..... Thus, "Page-Snipes" made more sense in 1983.....

MR.BILL

 

Holmes - Page was only demanded after the card you're referring to Bill. Page - Snipes was an eliminator to directly challenge for Holmes WBC title as his mandatory challenger. Nobody is saying Holmes could have or should have fought Page at anytime prior, and certainly not thereafter.

 

Nobody wanted "Holmes-Snipes 2" in 1983, so I know damn well Don King wanted Page to beat Snipes just like he did...... On the other hand, a rematch between Spoon and Snipes could've sparked some interest for a spot on the undercard...... King pushed Holmes into fighting Spoon cuz he was a fresh face and undefeated, where as Page had that letdown in '82 against Berbick.... BUT! Page did KTFO of Tillis in Nov. 82 in Texas before Holmes carved up Cobb in the main event..... It was possible and marketable that Greg Page and Holmes could've fought the main event in May 1983......

Points is, Page easily whipped Snipes' ass in May 1983 and would've had his best chance to win the WBC title had he and Holmes fought in Nov. 1983 as anticipated.....

Holmes refused to fight Page on HBO cuz Don King was only offering Holmes $2.5 million... Holmes retorted he had grossed $10 million for Cooney in 1982 and saw King's offer as a slap in the face... But Holmes failed to see the truth that Cooney was way more popular and generated much more income than Greg Page could ever muster up.....

MR.BILL