Holmes or Lewis?

It's a tough one.

Holmes' activity and achievements span over quite some.

Lewis crushed a more distinguished array of fighters in his time, but ran into those two ugly defeats.

You see, it's some peoples position to tell you that Holmes did not fight many 'good' fighters, that he fought down to the level of them (not entirely false), but look at the two men Lewis fell to - consistency counts for a lot.

On the flipside, Lewis carved out a handful of electric performances against 'good' fighters - you'd have to say the best men Holmes fought, generally, gave him the hardest time.

Ultimately, this was down to Lewis being a little more commanding, powerful and stylistically adaptable, while at the same time not quite sporting the package of speed, sturdyness or durability that Holmes brought into the ring.

Lewis is very hard to rate. It's best to rate a fighter during their prime, but Lewis' 'prime' contains his eyesores.

The classic principle of 'greatness' falls under the longevity rule, which is probably why Holmes rates higher than Lewis on a universal scale.

This poster is indifferent towards rating them against each other because their respective paths to 'greatness' are each cut out of a different material.

They're both undoubtably top ten men.

 

That's a great read, and i want to address a couple of points.

Lewis does indeed have two losses during his so called "prime". I will contend he definitely wasn't peak vs McCall and actually used the very trainer that took McCall clean thru his weaknesses to shore them up, round him out in other area's and make him a live contender for best heavyweight H2H ever. I'll also add that he was in no worse condition than Holmes was against Snipes and under the same circumstances Lewis faced Holmes could well have nabbed an "L" vs Renaldo. Lewis should have been allowed to knuckle on and show us his worth under the gun.He sure was keen. The good news, no matter the scenario, is that he came back to take on McCall again and gain some sort of revenge as well as show his guts and heart.

Rahman was at close to his peak. I will not rehash the banter of why i believe he lost, you've seen it all before. But he showed the character of true greats to get straight back on the horse and smash Rahman so convincingly that any talk of a rubber match was burnt at the stake.

But yes, these two can be rated against one another by the toss of a coin. I now have Lewis ahead by the narrowest of margins imaginable and will keep him there as neither will add anything more to the equation. Good to see you active Ted.

 

Have to bold and underline Ted don't you? Just out of curiosity, I think you have Holmes at about 4 (same as me), why is it that you are so critical of him, yet rate him so high?​

 

Yes, Ted needs to be underscored.

Bill, lets call it realism. We can still rate a fighter enormously high while recognising his weaknesses or certain traits. They ALL have their weak points. We don't have to be in denial just because we rate him top shelf. My main criticism of Holmes has always and will always be his latter day attitude and opponent selection. He ripped the public off and had the arrogance to think he was entitled to do so. He protected his record and looked to "cruise" into the record books while risking very very little. This is the facts, and he said as much himself.

The good points however are very good. I loved Holmes mean streak and unbelievable determination inside the ring. He brought a great set of skills and physical ability to the table and when we put the two together we have one of the greatest ever. You will never see me diss Holmes overall ability and there aren't that many i pick against him, not many at all. He's one helluva fighter and i quite like watching him at his best. He's unfortunate he didn't thrive in better historical times, because i think he is the sort of fighter who would rise to the occasion given much better opposition. I could be wrong, but that is my honest opinion. I myself pick Ali pre exile over him for certain, but i don't think there is another guy i would feel very comfortable backing against him with something serious on the line.

My comments earlier were correct i think, Lewis was in a similar condition to Larry when both got up from McCall/Snipes. That's the way i see it mate.

How is Larry BTW? See him lately? Tell him you swap banter with a huge fan Of Super Greg!!

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Lewis
4. Holmes
5. ??????

Ali over Louis by a little, Louis over Lewis by a bit and not a razors edge between Lewis and Holmes.

 

On the subject of Lewis-McCall, all the footage I have seen of it shows Lewis, upon rising from the knockdown, from an angle where I cant see his face. I've yet to see what the referee can see. I can see Lewis from the back, seemingly falling towards the referee on rubbery legs, but I cant see his face, his eyes, the total state of him.

I've only ever seen this fight with virtually no post-fight ramble, so perhaps I've missed some multi-angle stuff and close-ups to show Lewis's state.

I've read many times that he was in "no worse a state" than Holmes against Snipes, or Holyfield against Cooper, and I'm guessing you guys have seen footage of his face before the ref waves it off to be able to make that claim.
Last time I checked youtube it was still the same old footage, no close-up or frontal view of Lewis's state.
Can someone help me out here ? Where can I get a copy of the fight with better angles ?

 

He looks groggier than Holyfield for definite but on the same level as Holmes. Put it this way, there's no way in a million years, that this fight gets stopped in Las Vegas- if Lewis was a Yank (even if King wasn't McCall's puppet master).

 

I haven't seen a view of his face so I cant comment.

You might well be right about Vegas (Holmes-Snipes was in Pittsburgh), but I remember Tyson-Carl Williams (Atlantic City, I think) - where I got to see Williams' face and initial reaction on camera, and I think the stoppage was FAIR (by modern standards).

 

So, have you guys seen a better angle of the stoppage to the one I described ?

 

I was just using Vegas as an example, ANY American town or city then. Williams was the challenger also.

 

No one knows. Probably not. But if Larry was stopped immediately vs Snipes we'd be wondering the same.

 

Yes, I think so. Lewis's eyes are glassy, no doubts there. But i'd like to know if there's ever be a champ stopped that quickly in his home town?

 

Yeah, I get what you're saying.
But IF Lewis was offering similar initial reaction as Williams did, then I'd have to say he was stopped fairly, champion or not.

Holmes against Snipes looked hurt and groggy but he was also looking like he was preparing himself to resume, knew what was going on, seemed like it to me. Williams against Tyson looked downright confused and helpless for a couple of seconds upon rising.

Having not seen any properly illustrative footage of Lewis's face upon rising I dont know what to compare it to. I assume others have seen better angles and close-ups.

 

But champions have been given this extra chance for over a century (whether fair or not), especially heavyweight champs. Tyson would have been given it, Holmes was given it. Mike Weaver wasn't...of course. Wonder why? :huh :good