Holmes or Lewis?

I dont know.
But for me it all boils down to whether the referee was fair or not. If Lewis was giving out signals that he wasn't sure what was happening, and was merely in a dream-like state and up on instinct, then the referee is arguably obliged to save him from further fighting.

 

Well, you can speculate on why.
But I'm willing to give the referee the benefit of the doubt.
McCall hit Lewis a hell of a shot - and Lewis did well to get to his feet. IF he was all confused and wobbly-eyed, then perhaps the referee acted out of a sense of responsibility.

Personally I look at the referee in Johansson-Patterson 1, for example, and it's kind of sickening how he lets it go on after (what I think is) the first knockdown.
I'm not going to say all referees should act it that "tradition" simply for the sake of it.

 

The referee was obliged to save Holmes vs Snipes too. Peanut Head flew into the ropes and could barely stand...but the ref was too busy leading Snipes to a neutral corner. Not just telling him to go there, physically taking him there, virtually pinning him in . You think Lewis might have been afforded these extra seconds too if he was King's fighter?

 

He acted in a sense of resDONsibilty if anything? But the stoppage wasn't that bad I agree there. But, like I mentioned, most champs would be given the benefit of the doubt and ALL King champs would have been. The reaction to the punch is no real difference to the huge right Hearns takes vs Barkley. He's every bit as ****ed as Lewis but Steele allows it to go on, but he's right next to the action to see if Tommy hasn't recovered and stops it immediately.

 

Don King. Any chance of coming back with a few examples were one of King's major players has been stopped in similar circumstances then? I'm not saying there hasn't been any, mind (but I can't imagine the list is as long as the amount of times Joan Collins has slept on the wet patch). And a Don King fighter, who was champ in their home town not being given the opportunity that early in the fight? We'll be here all year. Happy 2009 by the way.

 

All good points MDWC,
I guess Lewis should have signed with Don King then, and perhaps then if Richard Steele had been appointed referee Lewis would have probably had the pleasure of getting KO'd properly.

(Or could Lewis have turned it around?)

Hey, I'm a big believer in Frazier beating Foreman under old 1900s refereeing, in the days when, as Kid Lavigne said "They used to let us rip!". .... But Patterson still has no hope against Johansson after that 1st knockdown. It's all swings and roundabouts.

Renaldo Snipes as heavyweight champion, maybe he would have made Greg Page his first defence. Snipes v. Cooney ?
Nah, King would've gotten Larry the rematch, for sure.

 

I'm from the 'fights are stopped too early' corner anyway but that's just me. I like the Barkley-Hearns stoppage actually and consider it exactly what i'd do. Steele gave the champ a chance but was right up there ready to jump in, which he did.

 

Yeah, I cant disagree with that. Steele did well.
Tyson-Ruddock 1 was a crap one though.

 

If the same referee from the Lewis McCall fight was in the ring for Holmes versus Snipes and Shavers, [2 second raters], then Holmes would have 2 Tko losses from those fights, he wouldnt of been allowed to continue, he was in worse shape than Lewis was when he got up at 6, as seen in this video,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LijnCa33Uw



I dont see this as an example of durability, rather an example of poor refereeing standards back in the day.

 

I've often used the same examples when drawing comparisons to the McCall-Lewis fight. I've told other posters that if the same referee from McCall-Lewis had been in the ring for the Holmes Shavers fight that it would have been the same thing.

 

I rank Holmes highe for dominance, though i think maybe Lewis' CV was better overrall.

I also think Holmes fairs well in the H2H argument. One of the few heavys id pick to be an on form lewis.

 

I'd rate Lewis higher. He's beat the better comp., and I think he would KO Holmes H2H both prime

 

Holmes over Lewis,every time. Holmes was dominant for longer, consistantly dominant. Holmes had more sucessful title defenses over better opposition, during an era noted for good heavyweights. He was jobbed for the title, not soundly beaten. Plus he was still able to school most fighters he faced until almost fifty years old. I suspect a young Foreman would give Lewis's stiff ass the bum rush!

 

I would probably favor Holmes in this matchup to, but I wouldn't get carried away with the notion that the 80's were noted for good heavyweights, or that Holmes defeated opposition that was infinately better. Larry gave a lot of title shots to guys who I think were boosted in the ratings with very thin credentials. Ocasio, L. Spinks, Frank, Rodriguez, Zanon, Evangelista, Bey, Smith, M. Frazier, Ledoux, Snipes and a number of others were not exactly world class when they fought Holmes. Larry should have been fighting the likes of Page, Thomas, Dokes, Coetzee, and Tate rather than some of the previously mentioned fighters. He also got away with a few very close decisions and never gave rematches to those fighters. Lewis's career can't go without a certain amount of criticism either. He had bad losses to McCall, Rahman, and possibly Mercer, depending on who you talk to. He also never faced Wlad Klitschko or Chris Byrd when they were qualified to fight him. Lastly, Lewis's best wins came against aging fighters. Regardless, of who you pick as the better fighter, neither Holmes nor Lewis can be drastically rated over the other. Their careers weigh very closely, and so do their chances in a head to head matchup.

 

Regarding Holmes and Lewis I think the main point is that it's good to see both getting their just dues, at least on ESB. Both are elite top fighters. Some, like myself will even put them at or near the top 5 others might have them lower, but I do think they are close in comparision. Both would be near the top in a h2h sense against all the ATG's and both had similar careers. Regarding Magoo's comments about Wlad, I personally think Lewis fought the tougher of the two brothers, and I also personally think both would have beaten a 35 year old Holmes, so I have a hard time discrediting Lewis on this basis, and in fact, I think his win over Vitali is much under appreciated.