Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

I must have missed the fights where Ali pressed the action.

 

When in a fight, Ali turned it on from the beginning: Liston 1; Liston 2; Williams; Frazier 1; Frazier 2; Frazier 3; Norton 2; Foreman; Spinks 2, just a sample of the fights you should not miss where Muhammad Ali shows his wonderful offensive abilities.

 

I think it was Sugar Shane Mosley who called Ali an "unorthodox brawler". The fact that he didn't normally "come forward", Young-fight style, doesn't mean he was not an offensively-minded, take-control guy, as I originally stated.

Of course Ali's style was not bloodthirsty like say Roberto Duran's or Joe Frazier's. But he was always looking for the opening, either taking the initiative, like when he drew first blood against Liston in Round 3, or waiting to strike back swiftly like against Foreman.

Ali threw a lot of punches, most not exactly counters; to me that is an offensive fighter. He just didn't feel like brawling orthodox-style.

 

This is prime for prime. How is Ali going to the ropes relevent?

Presumably, he would be using his fantastic leg movement, combined with upper body movement to dart in and out of range as and when he saw fit.

 

Very good analysis; Wasn't Holmes a sparring partner for Ali when Larry was on the way up? Not sure I'd pick Holmes, but then again, not sure I'd pick Ali either! Two of my favorite fighters ever!

Boo

 

I'd make Ali a favourite against Louis because Joe had trouble with slick boxers who could move. I'm just not sure Louis would be able to catch Ali on the ropes or in the corner, and Ali's speed of foot would create problems for the 'shufflin' shadow.'

I think Holmes is a 50/50 pick. Holmes possessed a world-class jab with a great boxing brain. I can see him making Ali fight his fight instead of the other way round.

 

Over the course of a three fight series both have a live chance of defeating Ali at some point or other. I think that Holmes style matches up better head-to-head, though.

Still, two tough fights to call here. Ali certainly couldn't afford to be slack against a puncher of Louis' calibre. No way josé!

 

Peak Ali didn't go to the ropes much. It's only in the FOTC, and especially with Foreman and after, that we see him doing this more frequently. Holmes was very aggressive with his jab, and like Ali, would not hesitate to go to the sternum with it when Muhammad leaned back.

Yes, Holmes was one of Ali's sparring partners for Foreman. (In Ali's ghostwritten 1975 autobiography, mention is made of "young, fast, smart Larry Holmes," three years before Larry became famous for decisioning Earnie Shavers.)

In 1980, Holmes started out far more tentatively against Ali than he would have with Eddie Futch in his corner. Even with Richie Giachetti though, Larry's attacking with the jab right away. Using that weapon, he wouldn't have been expending a great deal of energy.

It's difficult for me to envision Ali going to the ropes against Larry. Holmes might just stay outside, and continue picking away with the jab, hardly something that would cause Larry to punch himself out. Holmes was very good at keeping his hands up, an effective defensive tactic against Ali. Muhammad's body attack wouldn't do much to Larry. The only indication of Ali going downstairs as a mainstay of his attack that I've read was against Blue Lewis. (I haven't seen any footage of this match though.)

 

I think he took the back foot for about 95% of the total time he fought those opponents. It would be 99% but he did go forward a bit more against Cleveland 'Punching Bag' Williams.

 

What you're basically saying is that 'Ali threw punches' so therefore he was offensive minded. Every boxer throws punches.

 

Ali beats both of them but I wouldn't be tooo confident. Holmes if he can successfully time Alis jab and counter like Norton he will win, and Louis is one of the all time great punchers and finishers.

 

Jesus. Not only was Ali the best boxer-mover in heavyweight history, according to some he was also the strongest because he was good at clinching illegally, had the best chin even though others have shown to be sturdier, had 'very good' power despite almost never knocking a man out, and was now aggressive, even though he almost never took the front foot. The man must be magic. One poster in this very thread described Ali's offense as 'wonderful' - his uppercut was a slap, the left hook a swat and the body punching was nearly non-existant, and even his better punches only occasionally carried sufficient force to stun a man. Still, it's Ali. His offense must have been wonderful, and it's probably blasphemous to disagree.