Holmes, Shavers, Ali and other great of the past would beat easily Joshua, Wilder and Fury.

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Boxing2019, Sep 30, 2024.


  1. Boxing2019

    Boxing2019 If you want peace, prepare war. banned Full Member

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    Flawless logic. Its just how I think about that.
     
  2. TMLT87

    TMLT87 Active Member Full Member

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    I dont think any of them beat an on form Fury "easily" and all could potentially lose, frankly, although i'd favour Holmes and Ali.

    Shavers has a punchers chance against any of them but also is vulnerable to all of them.
     
  3. MorvidusStyle

    MorvidusStyle Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Holmes got beaten so easily by 5'10 Tyson it was ridiculous. He was old, but under 40, and apparently 40 isn't old anymore. Not sure he even landed a power punch.
    Ali went life and death with Frazier who was beaten up like a little kid by Foreman.
    All I can say is go watch the extended footage of these characters, not just the highlights, and you'll see how untrained they are compared to now.
     
  4. Rollin

    Rollin Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Dangerous did not directly equated number of top ten fighters beaten in my dictionary, otherwise I would have to consider Wilder on par with Zhang and Corrie Sanders which I absolutely do not. I do not.

    Time and place matters. Wilder was a privileged USA heavyweight of the ending Klitschko era, with numerous straps instead of a single truly recognized champion, and a biased sanctioning body on his side, on top of a shallow or passing-of-the-torch talent pool which he still managed to avoid. Luis Ortiz bout happened nine years into Wilder's professional career, and three years after becoming a title-holder and feasting on Molina, Szpilka, Molina, Duhaupas, and Washington. Sprinkled with Stiverne and Breazeale whose career leave a lot to be desired, though granted, they were ranked fighters when Wilder beat them, or in the years right before. Top ten is still an admirable place to be, circumstances notwithstanding. You can up the credit for Bermane and Ortiz being x2. Still.

    Lyle made his debut in 1971 after a year long amateur career, which is important in comparison to Wilder, who progressed at an abysmal pace. Ron was already ranked annually for 1972 when he send Buster Mathis into a well-deserved retirement in two, and stopped Larry Middleton in three. The Larry wins are overlooked for Lyle, because Middleton missed out on the commonly looked at the Ring annual ratings except for '74. That being said, he was ranked leading up to his fight with Quarry as #8 or so, and he generally oscillated in the lower top ten at the time. He lost the eliminator against #2 Jerry, but gave him a troubling fight (as Larry could against the likes of Norton, with his range and clever boxing) and this performance could have feasibly see his stock rise, except Ron stopped him in three rounds, then repeat the win against Middleton who would break into the top ten again right afterwards, fighting as #8 against Oscar Bonavena. 1973 started for Lyle with an upset loss against Jerry Quarry, and subsequent eight more fights, including: a win and a draw against the Goyo Gregorio Peralta who since the time he dropped from the top ten after '69, spend his time travelling and feasting on Euro-cans; a three round stoppage of '70, '71, and '72 top ten contender Jose Louis Garcia attempting to salvage his career after an shock upset loss to Joe Alexander, Garcia being fat as a hog for the fight; finally the second Middleton win. In '74 he beat Oscar Bonavena who was ranked #7 after losing the fight. In '75, despite it being a year when he lost to both Ali and Young (James being on the best streak and years of his career culminating in the victory over a sliding Foreman and split decision loss to Kenny Norton which cost him the title), he beat Earnie Shavers who was ranked annually the same year, and would go on to break the top ten twice more, having his most famous bouts against Ali and Holmes ahead of him. '76 was a repeat with him participating in the war against Foreman and insisting on getting into the ring with Young instead of cherry picking an outer echelon of top ten ranking emerging at the dusk of the Golden Era. In 1977 he beat Joe Bugner while they were fighting to remain in the top ten, and as a thirty year old man in '79 willed himself to a razor close victory against Scott LeDoux who would be annually ranked as #10 based on the strength of his performances this year, though granted, him performing as he did against Ron and Kenny put him in the spot. Take it as you will.

    Bottom line is: Oscar Bonavena (long-time top contender, ranked #7 even after losing to Lyle), Joe Bugner (another long-time, Lyle was installed as an underdog, made it into annual the Ring top ten for six years in a row up until his loss to Ron), Earnie Shavers (beaten after Lyle was coming off of a two lost bouts, including a stoppage by Ali), and arguably Larry Middleton, who was ranked leading up to the eliminator against #2 Jerry Quarry, and was brutally stopped by Lyle two years into his professional career (furthermore, he beat Larry again before he would move on to secure top ten again, albeit briefly before losing to Bonavena.) You can sprinkle all that with numerous on the slide former contenders and solid trial horses like Ellis, Garcia, Mathis, Peralta, or Kirkman, and the willful victory over LeDoux in 79, at the tail end of his immensely condensed career.

    Generally speaking, Lyle makes Wilder look plain sad. Fought a ranked contender each year bar the one in which he made his debut, and entered the ring with a stellar amount of top fighters given his late start and short career. (Middleton in '72, Quarry right at the beginning of '73, followed by eight more bouts this year, including recently ranked albeit sliding Garcia, soon to be ranked again Middleton, and Gregorio Peralta twice; in '74 he beat Bonavena; in '75 he fought Ali, Young, and Shavers; in '76 fought Foreman and Young, before beating Bugner in '77, and sliding down with age and wear and tear of his life, when he notably slowed down.) Nine ranked fighters, win or lose, in seven years, the bouts like Mathis, Ellis, or Garcia aside. Lyle-Foreman was Fight of the Year and is considered the greatest slugfest of all-time by numerous rankings. By the time Lyle won as an underdog against Bugner, Wilder finally got maneuvered for a shot against Stiverne. And this is the bum who is given countless excuses for being battered by Parker and Zhang. You can excuse Lyle for losing to Lynn, Cooney, and struggling against LeDoux, because the man was bleeding for the sport, and did damn fine while doing it, being a top ranked contender for years, while taking numerous challenges and as as a bizarely late starter.

    Shavers was the first to beat the sliding Ellis who was a world champion with numerous notable wins, and ranked in the top ten for at least five or six years, including as #3 by the Ring in 1972, leading up to the Shavers stoppage in June 1973, after which he dropped to fringe top ten ranking and disappeared. Shavers stopped the rather ancient Norton who would go on to struggle with LeDoux and Cobb, but was nonetheless an ex-champion a long-time top contender, being in the top 2 for three years prior to the Shavers stoppage, mirroring the Jimmy Ellis fight in which Shavers brutally send a former elite fighter tumbling down the ladder. It does get harder to find notable wins from the on, agreed. Shavers' stock skyrocketed a lot thanks to his performances against Ali and in Holmes II, on top of being universally praised as the single hardest hitter encountered during career of various fighters (Ali, Cobb, Holmes etc.) You can add Henry Clark who was ranked momentarily in '74, and who never lost a fight since that time, up until his dual losses to Earnie in '76. Ellis and Norton alone, despite their fading form and motivation, still outshined any of Wilder's ranked opposition bar equally old Ortiz, and that's not taking into account that Earnie operated in shark-infested waters, and was notably avoided (Frazier flat out refused him a title-shot) due to being an extremely high risk and low reward. Wilder was the one doing the avoiding during his title reign.

    Mac is Mac. All his wins are knockouts, all his wins are against C-class fighters or former contenders one leg into retirement. Ironically, his career does not look bad compared to Stiverne and Breazeale who combined might eek out a resume of Arreola times two, and Negron (?). Cooney fares better in h2h, once again agreed. He was maneuvered into a title shot by beating remains of the 70's and then lost to one of the greatest heavyweights to ever lace them. For what's it worth, Old Foreman said he shook him badly, and you can pinpoint the exact moment the left hook from Gerry buzzed George. Not much use arguing for those two resume-wise. Resume-wise, you are right, but I'd still see them as favourites (Cooney) or an even match-up against Wilder. Ali mentioned Mac Foster "gave me a grueling 15 rounds in Tokyo, Japan, that had to be one of my toughest fights from a physical standpoint."

    Most importantly though–any of those fighters would thrive in the desolate graveyard of a division that was heavyweight boxing when Bermane and Dominic had their moment of being ranked. They would be able to afford the strategic matchmaking, calculated wins, and eventual cash-out against the actual top dog. Foster and Cooney benefitted from similar management tactics, but they were in much more of a shark-infested waters, and with numerous different straps to grab on top of USA fighters being so clearly favored in the Europe dominated 2010's heavyweight boxing to the point where Wilder was able to produce a WBC-protected fraud career, building legacy on wins that would make the newspapers of the yesteryear tear him apart like wet tissue.

    Not producing libel on the Ortiz win, because despite him being ancient with a questionable resume as well, it was a nice little win which makes me wonder what would happen if Deontay was challenged and perhaps lost earlier. Would he perhaps rise above the circumstances as a better fighter.
     
  5. Boxing2019

    Boxing2019 If you want peace, prepare war. banned Full Member

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    Damn you are a sort of boxing history book. If you keep going in this way you could reach CST's boxing culture level in a short time. Lol
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2024
    Rollin likes this.
  6. Rollin

    Rollin Boxing Addict Full Member

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    If I'm not talking nonsense. :outtahere:
     
  7. Boxing2019

    Boxing2019 If you want peace, prepare war. banned Full Member

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    No, good post.