HOLMES V NORTON - Great Fight.... BUT

The best I could do to help resolve the issue (or fan the flames) is the Ring magazine ratings. (Not official I know.)

March 1975: Ali champ

Foreman number one challenger

March 1976: Ali champ

Foreman ranked 4th

March 1977: Ali champ

Foreman number 1 challenger

 

I must be honest, it sounds like 'fudging' to me.

 

Patterson and Liston were still Number one contenders regardless. Yes, even after Floyd's 2 minute cameo. :good

That's because his mandatory was overdue, so Douglas had to fight Holyfield (as opposed to Tyson-Evander, which pencilled in for summer 1990). Holyfield was the mandatory, not Tyson. Tyson became mandatory late 1990 and the fight was scheduled for November 1991.

Yeah, Frazier avoided an Ali rematch, we've established this. And yes, Leon was stipped of the belt- purely because of Ali's fudging of his mandatory.

 

True. Foreman ranking went to #2 around May of 76.

 

I love the way he's mentioned Spinks being stripped too.

That's part of my argument. All of a sudden, the rules apply when Ali isn't champ. Ridiculous. :huh

 

I used Spinks as an example of the ex-champ not being mandatory. And yes, Patterson, Liston and Ali were still nr. 1 after losing, but not mandatory. Patterson and Liston got their immediate rematches due to clauses, not because they were mandatory. Ali didn't get and immediate rematch (after FOTC) and neither did Frazier. Had Frazier gotten a rematch (when Forman was champ) it would only have been after beating Bugner and Ali.

It's you who make the difference between mandatory and nr. 1. Going into 1976 Norton was nr. 1 (but not mandatory according to you) and Young was nr. 2. After beating Frazier, Foreman must have become nr. 1, but then Ali had a scheduled meeting with Norton. After that he "ducked" Foreman for a total of 6 months. Poor big George.

To Fists of Fury: That Foreman was nr. 1 going into 1975 doesn't mean anything since he wasn't active that year.

 

But the fact remains, if there wasn't a rematch clause, providing they didn't lose in the meantime, when a mandatory was due- it's they who get the fight.

Who was Norton Number One with?

He was called out throughout late 1975 and 1976 and early 1977 to 'sign' for a fight. He didn't.

Yes, but they didn't know that in March 1975. He was installed as #1 probably because he's trounced Joe and Kenny.

 

As for Spinks being stripped.... he wasn't the only one. Monzon and Conteh were immediately stripped when they didn't face their mandatories (yet respectable opponents, especially in Monzon's case), around the same time by the same governing bodies. I don't see what's so hard in admitting that Ali retained his title because he was Ali and for that reason only.

 

Except for Spinks being stripped what examples are there at HW? Patterson wasn't in anyway forced to take on Liston, for example.

The Ring.

How nice it would be to get a title shot every time you call out for it. Fact is, in late 1975 Ali faced Frazier, and Foreman had done nothing since losing in Zaire. Only after beating Frazier was he truly top of the rest. 9 months later he retires. This is hardly one of the classic hard luck stories of contenders, especially since he had already been bested by Ali.

 

Of course, Ali got benefits for being Ali. No way was he gonna get stripped, no matter what more or less.

But - IF Foreman was mandatory long before beating Frazier again I see this as just as arbitrary as Ali not being stripped for not facing him. In either case, I don't feel Foreman was hard done by.

The possible leeway Ali got by the org. wasn't even as wide as the one Frazier got when Ali was nr. 1 and clamouring for a rematch. Only 10-15 years earlier Patterson could have avoided Liston forever without being stripped.

And Frazier himself would have had to get by Ali to get a rematch with Foreman in 1974. I don't see why Foreman should have been a special case and getting a rematch as soon as he wanted after Zaire.

 

AHa ha, are you actually serious? What the hell has this got to do with being mandatory/number one contender? It seems that all's you've got in this debate is one old browned copy of the Ring, dated March 1976 or something and getting all your info from that.

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He didn't want one as soon as he wanted, he wanted it as the mandatory contender, which was due in late 1976, and by then, the only really big fight out there.

 

This paragraph proves you're an absolute joke. Norton was number one contender but not mandatory and then in the next post I ask you what he was number one in, you reply "The Ring". What the hell that has to do with mandatory title defences only you'll know it appears.

 

There aren't many examples because champs usually fight their mandatory. Michael Spinks springs to mind of course, as someone who bottled out of the HBO tournament as he **** his pants as soon as Tyson came on the scene.


ps. After Foreman retired, Ali spent most of 77 avoided his mandatory again, which was finally, Norton.

 

Exactly. And Conteh was stripped for not fighting Cuello. Hardly an ex-champ, who'd say, already KO'd Marvin Johnson and Saad Muhammad in 2 rounds (like George had to the Numbers 2 and 3).