Holmes vs Cooney

Let's be honest, it wasn't political it was racial. Cooney too his credit didn't play into that nonsense. But the American media and Don King gave Cooney the title "The Great White Hope". He was supposed to deal with the burly and arrogant Negro Larry Holmes. When it didn't happen that way and he lost, American media (white America) turned its back on him. Cooney was rushed into a fight he wasn't ready for against Holmes because of its racial undertones. That simple.
When Cooney failed to win the championship, the weight of White America crushed him. Scarred him mentally. He went into a deep depression, started living in the bottle, and drugs. Lost that passion he clearly had the night he fought Holmes, it was their. The fight wouldn't have gone that long if it wasn't.
In my opinion, Cooney could've been heavyweight champ, he had the ability, he just didn't have the heart and the hardness, and ability to tune out the nonsense when he lost this fight.
I believe the pressures and expectations placed on him by the majority of Americans ruined him.
Most of the majority of the Americans never forgave the lost. Called him a "bum" and " protected" but that same majority of Americans are the ones who were so sure he would ko Holmes, and rushed him into the fight.
To this day, we still have some that haven't forgiven this lost. Don't believe me? Look no farther than" The Morlocks" a rational poster on almost everyone other than Gerry Cooney.

 

I think it’s best just to look at it as the fight that it was. A tough fought battle between the best two heavyweights at that time..

The winner was great before. And he was great afterwards.

The loser fought better than he ever had until that point.. and never was able to beat a good fighter after that.

Cooney was a genuine threat to the title. Holmes beat his logical challenger.

 

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My article on it. https://imgur.com/gallery/5UQGhWH

 

No disrespect intended toward you but Gerry Cooney was undeserving of a title shot in 1982. He beat up a couple of escapees from a nursing home, Ken Norton and Jimmy Young, and that is not smart strategy on his managements part. He should have fought some live top contenders to earn his spot. Why did he not fight a Tim Witherspoon or a Pinklon Thomas? Cooney is a nice fellow but a ferocious fighter he is not. His management was money hungry.

 

I disagree. Cooney was only "logical" in the sense that they'd hyped him to make money.
In terms of actual proven contenders he didn't deserve to be at the front of the queue.
Holmes-Weaver 2 was the most logical heavyweight fight out there if you wanted to see the best faced the (2nd) best.
And a few others should have been clear ahead of Cooney too.
Cooney was never genuine #2, no way, and it wasn't even a 'strong era'.

 

I did say he was rushed into a title shot right? I never said he was ferocious, I said he had potential, my main point was the racial climate of the country was THE major factor /force that created Holmes/Cooney.
You ask why didn't he fight Spoon or Thomas, but is that what the public wanted? I'll answer that for you and that would be no.
And who knows, he may have blown out Spoon or Thomas, they weren't exactly ATG's.
The White vs Black thread was the main force behind the fight. The Majority of Americans demanded the fight, they wanted a white champion, someone who looked like them ( Hell, the president Ronald Reagan , demanded and got direct access to Cooney’s Lockeroom by phone if he won. He demanded no such access for Holmes Lockeroom) How could he or his corner NOT take the chance and not face Holmes under those pressures?
Cooney clearly wasn't ready for Holmes, and he may never have been able to beat him. But tell that to Joe average citizen whom probably knew as much about boxing as I know about flying a space shuttle.
Only thing "Joe average citizen " saw was a big strong white fighter destroying some well known black fighters, they didn't care about their age, or that they were past prime.
When he failed to defeat that "arrogant n----r " Holmes, when he failed to "Put him in his place". By the way These are some of the quotes of the era, not my words.
The country turned against him. Cooney being a sensitive guy felt he let the entire world down caved in mentally from that stress.
My main point is lets stop blaming Cooney for a situation he clearly didn't create or asked for, and didn't want any part of. The culprits here are the subconscious racism that poisons so many even to this day. And of course Don King, possibly the greatest con man in the history of boxing. But he was smart enough to realize what the true issue were. was smart enough to manipulate it and push it to its maximum effectiveness, made millions of dollars off of the racism in the hearts of majority of Americans .

 

I am sooo tired of you liberal snowflakes painting America as this race hating country. It wasn't in the 70s and it isn't now. You liberal race baiters are the only racists pushing that agenda.

 

As I remember it, the country didn't turn against him after the loss. I remember interviewers talking to him like any other fighter asking him about the fight, if maybe was the wrong stratagy, and about his future plans. It was Gerry himself that just fell out of the picture.He was a soft spoken, very sensitive man outside the ring. And yes, he was quite ferocious! As for the racial stuff, he couldn't really help it if he was white, as Larry couldn't help it if he was black.

 

choclab asked an interesting question on page 3, something to the effect of, "who did the other challengers beat to get a title shot?" Basically I looked at Holmes' challengers' records for the 2-3 years before they got their shot and pulled out the biggest names on their records.

• Alfredo Evangelista beat Lucien Rodriguez to win the European title; went the distance with Muhammad Ali
• Ossie Ocasio decisioned Jimmy Young twice, beating him by about two points both times.
• Mike Weaver stopped prospects Bernardo Mercado and Stan Ward.
• Earnie Shavers KO'd Ken Norton, but lost to Ali and Holmes.
• Lorenzo Zanon beat Evangelista to win the European title; looked good before getting caught against Norton and Quarry.
• Leroy Jones decisioned Mike Weaver a year and a half before; decisioned Dino Denis.
• Scott LeDoux beat Marty Monroe and drew with Norton, but lost to Ron Lyle and Weaver.
• Muhammad Ali beat Leon Spinks in the rematch two years before. Considered by some to be lineal champ despite his brief retirement.
• Trevor Berbick beat John Tate but was knocked out by Mercado.
• Leon Spinks beat Mercado and Evangelista.
• Renaldo Snipes "beat" Gerrie Coetzee, beat Jumbo Cummings and Lt. Heavy champ Eddie Mustafa Muhammad.
• Gerry Cooney stopped Dino Denis, Jimmy Young, and KO'd Ken Norton and Ron Lyle in their last fights (save for Lyle's 90's comeback). Inactive 13 months going in.
• Randall Cobb beat Earnie Shavers, Bernardo Mercado, and lost competitive fights against Ken Norton and Michael Dokes.
• Lucien Rodriguez beat Alfredo Evangelista in a European title defense.
• Tim Witherspoon beat Renaldo Snipes 11 months before and had been inactive since.
• Scott Frank drew with Renaldo Snipes.
• Marvis Frazier beat James Broad and Joe Bugner.
• Bonecrusher Smith beat Frank Bruno.
• David Bey beat Greg Page.
• Carl Williams beat James 'Quick' Tillis
• Michael Spinks was the unbeaten Lt. Heavy champ.

Make of this what you will. IMO looking at it this way, no one comes out smelling like a rose.

 

I don’t know about that. Weaver was kind of cheese champion wasn’t he? After giving Larry a good fight (did he do better than Cooney against Holmes?) he beat Tate and Coetzee.

now Why were Tate or Coetzee held in any higher regard than Norton, Young and Lyle at that time? I accept Coetzee had a win over Spinks but then he lost to Tate in his next fight.
losing to Tate could tarnish the Spinks win for Coetzee.

who picks Tate to beat Norton, Young and Lyle?

I never understood what made Tate an acceptable person to lose to. Tate was younger than Norton of course but really just a novice.

So Weaver was just a guy Holmes had already dealt with. I have no problem with the unbeaten Cooney being a more logical challenger at that point.

 

1. Yes, Weaver did do better than Cooney against Holmes.

2. Obviously, at that time, Tate and Coetzee were held in higher regard than Norton, Young and Lyle because they weren't totally washed up.

Tate and Coetzee were better than Cooney, nevermind a 37 year old Norton.
Norton barely got past LeDoux, and that was almost 2 years before he faced Cooney. Then, he struggled with Cobb.

Weaver, Tate, Coetzee were relevant in 1980.
Ron Lyle wasn't.

But you're wrong.
Very wrong.

 

I agree, @choklab (with all respect due and an upcoming equivocation). Weaver rocked the heck out of Larry several times in that fight, messed his rhythm up manifold times, knocked him down BUT:

Larry was suffering a terrible cold at the time (listen to his post-fight interview, sounded like he should have been in bed instead of fighting). I doubt Weaver would have lasted as long as he did (though he still would have given a good fight) had Holmes not been physically sick.

 

I don’t think many people actually thought Tate & Coetzee were better than Cooney “at the time”. Think about it. They both just lost to Weaver.

The only decent person Tate beat was Coetzee who lost to both Tate and Weaver.

This is true. Ken did struggle with Cobb who was coming off a big win over Shavers. Dokes also struggled with Cobb. So old man Norton was in good company struggling with the same guy. Cobb was half decent by the standards of that era.

Yes, Weaver, Tate and Coetzee were more relevant in 1980 than Ron Lyle. But they all lost fights in 1979/1980 and Gerry Cooney didn’t.

technically Cooney lasted longer against Holmes than Weaver did though. Of the two, Larry showed Cooney more respect. Chose a better gameplan. Against Weaver Larry started way to fast because he underrated him.

washed up or not, at that time those easy wins over Norton, lyle and Young were worth noting. You serve those guys up to any other leading prospect of 1980 and there is no guarantee they would score such easy wins.

. Tubbs and Tucker could not stop Young much later on. And around the time Cobb stopped shavers, but couldn’t stop Norton. This after Tex also took Dokes to the wire.. so this puts old man Norton as a guy who can still operate at Cobb and Dokes kind of level.

would have been nice if Cooney beat somebody younger, but he did beat Dino Denis...and I didn’t see Tillis do anything more to warrant a title shot around that time and he still got a crack at the WBA title in place of Cooney.

In the context of who the other challengers beat on the way to the title. Nobody did anything differently than Cooney.

And let’s face it, is really Tate beating Cooney? I just don’t see it.

 

I disagree.
Jimmy Young is Cooney's best win and Young had already lost to Ocasio and Dokes and was only a contender for about 2 or 3 years circa. 1975-'78 anyway. For most of his career he's journeyman level.
The Young win is the only win that gives Cooney any right to be considered a legitimate contender. Yeah, okay, cool. Good win. Hey, put him above Ossie Ocasio, I'm okay with that.

Mike Weaver is clearly better than Cooney in the years in question.

Norton was well on his way DOWN, at age 37.
He was a carcass.