This is a very interesting match-up but one I've wondered about for a long time. Joe Frazier was a great pressure-fighter, tougher than Holmes and packed more power in his left hook than Holmes could in his still respectable right hand. Holmes is a very unfairly overlooked heavyweight, he dominated his era, being cheating out of beating Rocky Marciano's 49-0 record and taking on the best contenders his post-Ali pre-Tyson era had to offer. As for the fight it is very much a pick 'em. Frazier had wear-down power in his left hook, Holmes had decent enough power but more importantly prescision in his right hands - though in my opinion both men wouldn't have enough strength to stop the other. Frazier was only stopped twice, both by a prime Foreman, and Larry was only stopped by a prime Tyson and almost by Earnie Shavers - neither hit as hard as these men so for me it's going to the cards. Judging from style, Holmes is more suited to a points match, he has a killer jab, boxing skills, footwork and is very speedy and tough. Joe is a fighter who notoriously loses the early rounds as he wears his man down, but often stages a comeback in the mid and late rounds when he begins to get to his man. The outcome? Hard to tell. Frazier beat a still very sharp Muhammad Ali and fought another two VERY close fights afterwards. How does Holmes compare to Ali? Well he's not as graceful nor as fast - the lacking of both these traits would hinder Larry as both were Ali's saving grace from stoppage in the first fight and brought him to victory in the second and third. Holmes also lacked a chin as good as Ali's - so if Joe could put Muhammad on his backside, he'd do so to a slower, weaker chinned Holmes in my opinion. Holmes < Ali It's true for every catagory until jabbing strength. As I've said, I doubt Holmes power would be enough to stop Joe as it did his son - Marvis. But his heavy jab and punching power, if used correctly could have been Larry's saving grace at keeping Smokin' Joe from getting close, working the body and wearing him down. All this being said it's a tough fight. Holmes had the toughness, heart and jab to keep Joe away. But a pre-Ali (those fights took a lot out of him) Frazier had endless stamina and a much better chin and KO power and could have gotten to Holmes and taken a decision after a long late-fight beating. I could agree with anyone who'd say Larry would win, as I could anyone who'd say Joe could. But in my opinion I think non-stop pressure, from a fighter of such a high calibre than Holmes never faced would be too much for a lesser graceful and slower paced Holmes. W15 Frazier UD
As great as Holmes was I don`t think he ever defended his title against a fighter like Joe Frazier at his peak. No doubt Holmes can rank higher due to his sheer # of title defenses and his longevity. Pit Bull pressure fighters like Joe don`t usually stay at the top as long. Tough fight and probably a long fight. Larry Holmes had the razor sharp jab and the accurate rightcross that carried some pop. I guess one of the keys would be whether he could keep Joe off him. Did he pack enough power to back Frazier up consistantly? I think Frazier could have success getting in under Holmes jab and get to Larry`s body enough to due damage over the course of the fight. We saw Holmes take huge shots and recover from Mike Weaver, Shavers, Snipes. The difference being that those fighters didn`t break a man down to the body the way Frazier was able to. Holmes had a good chin and was tough but he wasn`t Ali. I think Joe Frazier stops him late in a brutal fight that would be FOTY quality.
apollack had interesting take on this HtH, a couple months ago. http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?p=16574450#post16574450 ------
I favor Frazier ..... Holmes did have a much better uppercut than Ali, which may have been useful vs. Frazier.
As much as I like and respect Holmes toughness and skills, Smokin' Joe will always be a tough fight for any classic boxer. Frazier by decision. Joe was just relentless.
I really can't see much difference between Holmes chin and Ali's and while Larry didn't move as graceful as Ali, the truth is he didn't need to waste energy on looking good and dancing around like even 70s Ali tended to do. His legs were certainly strong and flexible enough to move around to evade attacks and get into the right positions to move forward offensively when called upon.
Well um you need to get your eyes checked then. Its f*cking obvious ali had better durability. Past prime ali took huge shots from shavers and stayed on his feet. Prime holmes got dropped hard. The beating ali endured from frazier alone more than validates any claim of larry having equal durability. Saying Ali simply wasted energy is stupid, also. If holmes could move like ali he would have.
My eyes are fine, thanks and yes I still think Holmes was as durable as Ali and that even as hard as you might argue that Ali chin was better, it certainly was that much difference as that it meant that because Ali was dropped by Frazier, it must automatically mean Holmes would have definitely be dropped as well. Also yes Ali did like to pose, dance and waste energy. Its a fact, its not stupid to say that. Its just how he was and I not saying he did it all the time or it cost him fights but for Holmes it just wasn't in his nature or fighting style to waste energy like that.
Ali had uncommon toughness. Not just his chin but also his ability to absorb bodypunches. Frazier really tore Ali`s body up especially in the first and third fights. His ability to recover time after time was amazing. Holmes didn`t lack toughness but I`m not sure he would be able to take it like that from Joe.
You havent provided any reasoning as to why you think he was as durable though you just are saying it for the sake of saying it. Like i said it wasnt that simple that ali wasted energy. A lot of it was a mind game. Clearly your eyes are f*cked if you think holmes was as durable as ali. Get real with that sh*t. Holmes got dropped and hurt in his prime ALOT. Past prime Zombie Ali went 15 rounds with shavers and didnt get dropped yet shavers dropped Prime Confident Holmes like a sack of potatoes.