Holmes vs. Tunney

Dempsey was an all time hitter,and so was Louis . Tunney was an average heavyweight hitter.
Since Tunney can't out punch Holmes .and he can't out box him ,how exactly does he win?
I didn't limit my question to any era,the cold facts did that.
No 186 lbs man had successfully contested for the heavyweight title since the late 50's.
The nearest to it was Patterson defending his title in December 1961 against the hapless
Tom McNeeley.

How did ,"small,pocket sized," Frazier do against Foreman?

 

Tunney was a more skillful boxer than Holmes and could definitely have outboxed and outmaneuvered him. He was also much faster, busier, could fight at all ranges. Holmes wasn't all that strong either.
I'm not even the biggest Tunney fan in the world, I've criticized him on different threads; but saying that he has no chance against Holmes is ludicrous.
Fighters of that weight were scarce by the late 50s to early 60s.

 

Holmes would probably use his lighting quick jab over and over en route to a stoppage. Tunney does not have the offensive capabilities of a Spinks, but I don't mind the comparison, which would be the only case study to support Tunney. Holmes was not prime though. I just see Holmes winning. He is too durable to be stopped here, and too quick and big to be out-boxed. If it becomes a brawl, he wins, and at range, Holmes wins too. Tunney opened up and let his hands go, too, he was not Mayweather or Locche. His myth gets out of control, I don't think he would be able to win a contest against Holmes and I wouldn't give him even 1/10 fights.

 

I just made Holmes the winner ,I didn't disparage Tunney.
Fighters under 190lbs were not going to make it big from the 60's onwards at heavyweight because,with the advent of Liston and Ali the game was changing.
My argument with you was over the disparity in the respective weights between Holmes and Tunney and you saying there wasn't much of a difference ,when there was.
Holmes" wasnt all that strong?" Which men outmuscled him?

 

Holmes gave
Norton11lbs
Jones 43lbs
Ledoux 12lbs
Cooney 13lbs
Cobb 17lbs

Were any of them too strong for him?

 

I'd give Tunney a better chance of outpointing Louis than Holmes.

 

That's a reasonable question, and my answer is styles.
Fast movers with good jabs, excellent footwork ,and respectable right hand power, give anyone trouble.
Louis was not this flat footed automaton some would have us believe,but neither was he quick on his pins,he had an excellent sense of a rings geometry and could corner most men for the payoff,but a few men posed him problems,Conn,Pastor being two of them.
I'd pick Louis to beat Tunney but I would not be astonished if Gene managed to nick a decision.

 

I’ll agree with that.

Tunney could take rounds from Holmes - he was versatile & was not usually the dancing, circling bullfighter he gets a reputation for. He could press the fight, he could box inside & out, & he had superb timing & an outstanding ring IQ. Lesser fighters disrupted Holmes’ jab & rhythm.

Holmes is a horrible match up for him, but I don’t think he’d look outclassed - just I don’t think he could outright win it.

His chances against Louis would be better on the strength of styles.

 

Holmes isn't making anybody's list of strongest/most powerful heavyweights.
You are right that there was a shift and that big HWs took over around that time but the counter-argument to that is there were many big heavyweights before then that weren't so dominant.

 

Heavyweights routinely lost to light heavyweights and middleweights in those days so realistically someone like Greb counts for his heavyweight resume.

 

Is Tunney?
Who do you pick as stronger 188lbs Tunney or 216 lbHolmes?
Has Holmes ever been considered one of the weakest?
Strength is fine but you need talent with it .as Makmudov recently showed.
The many big heavyweights before then just weren't much good!

 

Heavyweights " ,in those days ,"were routinely not even big enough to be classed as cruisers!
Ever wondered why Greb never fought;
Fulton
Wills
Firpo
Godfrey
????

 

Correct. Not even old Holmes.