Holmes's comp... How highly do you rate it?

Exactly. I like Larry Holmes and rate him highly due to things like longevity, consistency, etc.. But if we're honest the best fighter he likely beat was a 15 fight Tim Witherspoon.....and the outcome of that decision was razor thin...

 

Average. Some good wins in there but also a lot of padding against journeyman types who didn't really deserve a shot. There's also quite a few names that should be on his record but aren't, besides rematches of his tough or disputed wins.

Having Ali, Tyson, Holy and Spinks on his record adds some Hall of Fame gloss, except he's 1-4 against those guys, the 1 coming against a sick old Ali.

 

If I'm not mistaken Ken Norton might be in the hall as well, but your point still stands. His record against Hall of fame inductees is poor.

 

A dozen heavyweight champions (five in the Hall of Fame) as well as Shavers and ****ey is hardly AVERAGE.

He fought the best versions of Tyson and Holyfield when he (Holmes) was an old man. Were they good competition? He fought Spinks when Spinks was at his peak, and he arguably split the two. Was Spinks good competition? He fought Ali at the end of Ali's career ... but Ali was the lineal champ and Ali was still the biggest fighter in the world ... and Ali CHOSE HOLMES to fight. (Ali had originally picked Tate, but Tate lost to Weaver in a tuneup.) Was Holmes supposed to turn it down? And, after Ali lost to Spinks, Norton was considered better than both and the best heavyweight on the planet. Was he good competition?

His competition is stellar. The point isn't whether he beat them all.

The list of heavyweight champs who faced 12 heavyweight champions (five of them in the hall of fame) is a short one.

 

He actually fought six men in the hall of fame but only went 2-4 against that bunch. And both of the ones he defeated were past prime.

Yes he fought them for the money and lost both.. Sure he was long past his best but these were still losses not wins.

Fair enough but his wins over Norton, Williams and Witherspoon were questionable as well.

I don't know how someone can still be labeled " champ" when they officially retired. By that logic the lineal title surely must have died with Gene Tunney.

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Norton was 35 years of age, arguably gifted in his last fight against Jimmy Young and never did anything note worthy again except trouble the living hell out of Holmes.

Some of his opponents were "good." I wouldn't say his comp was "stellar" especially if we're only going by wins which is really all that matters. If you want to build up a guy's resume on defeats then James Tillis and Everett Martin should both rank higher on an all time list.

It means quite a bit.

Except he lost to a few of them while the others were either alphabet title holders, washed up or holding no title at all at the time he fought them. You can't have it both ways by calling Ken Norton a champion while also claiming that Ali was champion at the same time. Berbick, Witherspoon, Weaver and Smith held no belts at the time he beat them and were very green. Tyson, Spinks, Holyfield and McCall beat him....

 

Is this going to be "let's pick apart Ken Norton" day?

And Ali was the lineal champ when he faced Holmes. He had his pick of "paper" champs. He chose Holmes. If you didn't know that, then you weren't following boxing then.

Instead of nitpicking, just name all the heavyweight champions who faced a dozen other heavyweight champions, including five in the hall of fame?

Larry Holmes did it and ... ?

His competition is stellar.

If there are a lot of heavyweight champions who face more than a dozen fellow heavyweight champs or Hall of Fame heavyweight champions, list them all.

It shouldn't take long. It's not like there are a lot of them.

 

Ali and Ken Norton weren't champions at the same time ... just so you know.

So I wasn't having it "both" ways.

Did you follow boxing then or are you just arguing with me?

 

Slightly beneath Wlad.

 

Name all the Hall of Famers Wlad has faced?

Name the best fighter Wlad has ever faced?

How many heavyweight champions has Wlad faced?

I respect Wlad Klitschko, but he hasn't faced better competition. He hasn't faced anyone yet who would rate higher all time than Ali, Tyson and Holyfield.

 

How many of those 12 heavyweight champions were actually stellar opposition when he fought them?

You'd be hard pressed to find two weaker 'heavyweight champions' than Leon Spinks and the 1980 Muhammad Ali. Guys like Spoon, Bonecrusher and Berbick were rookies with limited pro experience when Holmes fought them (Spoon was 15-0, Smith 14-1). Weaver was a then virtually unknown journeyman. Let's not pretend Larry had a crystal ball and knew these guys would be titlists years later when they were more experienced. He never fought any of them when they actually were heavyweight champs. Spinks was only a heavyweight champ because he BEAT Holmes. Of course Holmes was in no way looking for a soft touch when he picked a career 175lber who struggled with Eddie friggin' Davis to chase Rocky's record against.

What brings it down to average is that for every 'heavyweight champion' he faced, there were two or three fights against overmatched opponents like Cobb, Evangelista, Zanon, Marvis, LeDoux and so on.

He did redeem himself somewhat in his comeback by taking on Tyson, Holy, McCall and Mercer, four of the best heavies he faced (though he's 1-3 against them) and the type of opposition he didn't face when he was actually champion. But again how much credit you give him for facing men he lost to?

Which leaves Norton, who wasn't *really* a heavyweight champion as he was handed his belt by the WBC and lost every title fight he was in. Nor was Mercer, really, as hardly anyone took the WBO seriously back then, including Mercer who vacated it. Two of Larry's best wins though.

 

Holmes was embarrassed by Tyson, fought a shot Ali, and lost to Holyfield. Not exactly resume builders. So he beat one relevant future hall of famer in Norton, who is bottom tier for hall of fame heavyweights.

Wlad beat Iggy, Peter, Chagaev, Brewster, Byrd, Haye, Povetkin, shot Rahman...he doesn't exactly lack wins over belt holders. I wouldn't be surprised if one or two of them sneak into the Hall.

Holmes's best wins were Spoon, Norton, and...maybe Mercer or ****ey. Not exactly better than Byrd, Povetkin, and Haye. Wlad's longevity exceeds Holmes' and with fewer question marks at this point. That's why I think he edges it.

 

Oh Jesus.

So did they all have to be "prime" for them to count now? Who faces all their best competition when that competition is in their primes?

Seriously.

As for bashing Leon and Ali, Leon Spinks was the number-one contender when Holmes faced him. Spinks had beaten Mercado in an eliminator. And, frankly, he never looked better against Mercado.

Holmes beat a "prime" Leon Spinks.

And Ali was the lineal champ and had beaten everyone he faced when he fought Holmes.

The fact that Ali took Thyrolar to cut weight and get stronger (A PED) and then he abused it and took them by the handfuls and wrecked his system ... isn't Holmes' fault. It's because ALI WAS CHEATING AND IT BACKFIRED ON HIM.

Had Ali faced John Tate in June 1980 as expected, before he overdosed on PEDs, he'd have been favored to WIN!. And likely would have.

I'm not taking Ali off Holmes' list any more than I'd take Oscar De La Hoya off Manny Pacquiao's list.

Oscar was "the man" before Manny beat him. Ali was "the man" when Holmes beat him.

The fact that both lost badly and quit doesn't factor.


ALSO ... I'm not going to nitpick where each guy was in his career when Holmes faced him.

All those guys I listed were top heavyweights when Holmes faced them. All of them were coming off HUGE wins when they faced Holmes.

* Mike Tyson had just unified all the belts (WBC, WBA, IBF) and knocked out top contender Tyrell Biggs.
* Holyfield had just won the undisputed title and defeated Foreman in a classic.
* Ali had regained the title a third time from Spinks.
* Leon Spinks had beaten the number-one contender Mercado.
* Norton had been the top contender for years prior to fighting Holmes, and had just beaten the #1 or #2 rated (the WBA and WBC couldn't decide) Jimmy Young prior to fighting Holmes.
* Bonecrusher had knocked out top contender Frank Bruno.
* Witherspoon had beaten highly-rated Renaldo Snipes.
* ****ey was the number-one contender (having destroyed Young, Lyle and Norton).
* Shavers was the top contender (having faced Ali and Norton in his two fights prior to fighting Holmes twice).
* Berbick had knocked out Tate in his fight prior to Holmes.
* Michael Spinks had just unified the light heavy division and cleaned it out.
* Mercer had just destroyed Tommy Morrison in battle of two of top unbeatens.

And on and on and on.

Were they all at their very best? No. Some were, some weren't.

But it's not like he picked ancient guys on long losing streaks or people who didn't know how to fight yet.

Give me a break.

Instead of getting into this TIRED argument of who was prime and who wasn't ...

Name some heavyweight champions who faced MORE heavyweight champions (a DOZEN, five of whom are in the Hall of Fame) than Holmes did?

You guys say his record is average ... but I don't hear too many other heavyweight champions being offered by you who beat better comp.

Name all the heavyweight champs you think faced better competition than Holmes did. ALL OF THEM. There must be many, if Holmes is so "average."

 

Anyone who says Holmes beating Ali (when Ali was the Lineal Champ and had beaten everyone he faced) to become the lineal champ himself ... WAS NOT as big a deal as Wlad beating Byrd, Povetkin or Haye ... simply isn't informed.

And a prime Tyson and a prime Holyfield were tougher competition than Chris Byrd, or Alexander Povetkin or David Haye.

Ken Norton was better than anyone Wlad has faced.

I like Wlad. I think he's an all-timer based on longevity, not on who he's faced.

And Ibragimov and Sam Peter and whoever else you mentioned as possibly "sneaking in" to the Hall of Fame won't.

If Wlad faces any Hall of Famers, it'll be someone who he hasn't faced yet (Fury, Wilder, Parker, Joshua ... someone coming up). We all know that.

 

norton was champion when Holmes beat him for the title and I assume you credit Larry with this being one of the " twelve champions" he beat. You later credit him as beating Muhammad Ali " the champ" in 1980. So my criticisms of your double standards are correct. And BTW I'm well versed with the heavyweight scene of the late 70's and early 80's.

 

Who do you think that version of Ali could've beaten? I think you're the first person I've ever heard treat that win with significance.

Tyson embarrassed Holmes. It depreciates Holmes' resume. The Holy fight might help slightly. He was old and fought okay there.

And Haye, Povetkin, and Byrd will all likely be on HOF ballots. Based on which heavyweights have been accepted previously, Povetkin is very close and should make it if he beats Wilder or defends a handful of times more.