Holmes's comp... How highly do you rate it?

I was only rating his level of comp. up to the point he lost to Spinks. Of course, Tyson and Holyfield were great competition and they easily beat him.

I agree Wlad's comp. is nothing to write home about.

 

As much as I used to enjoy watching Larry fight, what has always stuck in my mind, is what, in my opinion, stains his record, is his losing not once, but twice to a blown up light heavy Mike Spinks. If I remember correctly, was he the only heavyweight champ in history to lose the title to a L/H?

 

I think most of the guys I mentioned had extensive amateur experience and proven when Vlad fought them, look at the time period when Holmes fought Weaver,Witherspoon,Smith,Norton,etc. they were either really green or past it....Kooney had the build up but fought 2 rds in over 2 years and never past 8 rds before...kind of a cash in kill for his managers. Some of Holmes toughest fights were by accident and he never rematched them. i think Larry had lots of talent and a great jab but he really navigated around the most dangerous guys of his era, even giving up a title not to fight Page and like i said many of Vlads opponents would have beaten Page and Witherspoon, especially the 15 fight version

 

The author of the thread opened the discussion with this sentence.....

One could conclude that he was comparing Holme's title run to other champions who had lengthy title reigns. If that's the case then we're talking about the men he defeated in his time as champion and contrasting them to the title comp of guys like Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Wladimir Klitscko, Lennox Lewis, etc.. I'd say Larry's title challengers fall into the middle of the pack..

 

That was my take, as well. That is why I stopped with Spinks.

 

Good lord, there is nothing wrong with losing to a guy who moved up...It's not like Spinks fought him at 175.

There have been countless excellent heavies that were never naturals...Holyfield started out as a light heavy and has a better legacy at cruiser, yet he still frequents top 10 HW lists. Chris Byrd, Michael Moorer, David Haye...need I go on?

Spinks is arguably the best LHW ever and obviously retained most of that skill moving up. He was a bit undersized in the first and just fine in the second (212), and he lost that one anyway.

 

Me too. Which is why I don't understand why some people are throwing around names of people that he LOST to and long after his title was gone.

 

Holmes' competition pre-Shavers was poor. How many names do you recognise? Fred Houpe? Fred Askew? Charlie James?

His title comp was overall average. It could have been much better. He fought Norton, Shavers, ****ey, a Parkinsons addled Ali and who else? A few inexperienced heavies who went on to establish themselves at the top (but as I said, he wasn't to know unheralded 19-8 Mike Weaver would pick up a belt and start knocking off contenders), and loads of forgettable defences against journeyman types before finally losing in what was thought to be a safe defence against a guy who'd never boxed above 175lb before.

Fighting prime Tyson and Holyfield and a few other decent heavyweights in comebacks doesn't suddenly give him a great resume.

Folks can spin about him facing "12 heavyweight champions", but that is nowhere near as impressive when you put them in context.

Ergo, overall average.

 

That strengthens my original point. And was Holmes the only heavy champ to lose to a blown up light heavy?

 

Or "one" could just answer the question and not just talk about who Holmes beat in their primes.

 

And here's a third option. One could also read the actual " content" of the thread and not just jump to conclusions when glancing at the title.

 

The first Shavers win was a decent notch on Larry's pre-champ record.

 

I didn't bring up anyone pre-Shavers. I listed the names specifically and said those names were stellar.

A DOZEN heavyweight champions (five in the Hall of Fame).

If you want to talk about Fred Haupe, fine. Every champ in history has Fred Haupe-types on their resume. They don't all have A DOZEN HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPIONS (five of whom are in the hall of fame).

Fighting a dozen champions, five of whom are in the hall of fame, is good competition.

Name all the champs who beat more heavyweight champs than that?

Frazier didn't. Ali didn't. Wlad Klitschko didn't. Vitali Klitschko didn't. Foreman didn't.

If he's faced average competition, who has faced better, please?

I don't rate Holmes among the top five heavyweights of all time, because he lost too much.

But from the standpoint of who faced the toughest competition, knock yourself out trying to find any heavyweight champions who faced as many/and/or better heavyweight champions.

In terms of both quality and quantity, his competition is right up there close to/if not at the top.

 

He was 199 lbs. Not really that small. Plus he just caught Holmes on a bad day. The rematch makes that clear, he lost despite being bigger and decently sized this time around.

And no. He was the first one to lose it on paper, but not the only one. Looking back at the past, many big champions lost not to blow-ups, but straight-up light heavies period. Just because they were called heavyweights doesn't mean they were by any modern standard.

I certainly don't hear anyone giving Joe Louis **** for nearly losing to 174 Billy Conn. Imagine if Haye nearly lost to Kovalev. His career would be shattered. But we just let these ridiculous size differences in the past eras slide as if they never happened.

There's also Byrd and Moorer. I'm sure a few else too.

 

I concur with this. I rate Holmes on his longevity, consistency and prolific activity as champion.. But the quality of his opposition or at least in a "winning" context needs to be viewed as being on the weaker side. While I think quite highly of Tim Witherspoon, his career had yet to take off. In fact a large part of his resume is based on the trouble he gave Holmes. At the time he was a 15 fight novice with no amateur career and had been off for a full year with only a controversial decision over Renaldo Snipes as his sole signature win..