Holmes's Title Opposition, as **** as they say???

These are all very good points and agree with most of what you're saying. Keep in mind however, that fighting Earnie Shavers twice and facing an entire generation of unbeaten prospects coming off of big wins, is not exactly a risk free career. I've never held it against him for fighting the younger challengers with not so many fights. The real problem that I had However, was his taking fights with guys who were never very good to begin with, nor ever would be such as Lucien Rodriguez, Alfredo Evangelista, Tex Cobb, Scott Ledoux, Ossie Ocasio, Lorenzo Zannon and Leon Spinks. None of those guys should have gotten title shots, and frankly I think it was ridiculous that they did. On the other hand, some of the other fighters like Cooney, Shavers, Norton, Witherspoon, Smith, Berbick, Jones, Weaver, Frank, and Williams were actually not as bad as people sometimes make them out to be in my opinion

 

I have to disagree a little with what you said regarding Page, Thomas, e.t.c. While it's true that those guys were very inconsistent and unpredictable, they were also good fighters, especially when they were motivated and well-trained(which wasn't often, I'll admit). However, Holmes chose to fight other fighters who weren't well respected or who were not thought of highly - Frank, Jones, Rodriguez -when he just as readily could have fought Dokes, Page, Thomas, e.t.c. Greg Page was Holmes' mandatory; Holmes was obligated to fight Page and chose not to. Do you think if Marvis Frazier or Scott Frank or Lucien Rodriguez had ever been Holmes' mandatory that Larry would have avoided fighting them? Probably not. He more than likely would have fought them willingly. However, no matter what the skeptics or Holmes apologists say, Greg Page was a good fighter that had more skill than the above-mentioned fighters I just named. The same goes for Pinklon Thomas. Sure they were flawed and inconsistent, but they had natural talent that those other guys didn't. That's why Holmes found excuses not to fight them. Holmes was to get $3.1 million to fight Page; that was alot of money in 1983(Holmes got the same for Tyson in '88). But Holmes gave up his belt instead of fulfilling his mandatory. And it's strange how Holmes never gave Witherspoon a rematch after such a close fight; the same for Williams.

 

While Tex Cobb, L. Rodriguez, A. Evangelista and Scott Ledoux were certainly bums, I tend to think that Leroy Jones was actually better ( at least on paper) than people give him credit for.

Jones was a large heavyweight at 6'5" and 250 Lbs, and undefeated in a respectable sum of 25 fights. In addition he held the NABF regional belt. His list of opponents were not exactly stelar, but he did manage to beat some fairly tough customers in John Denis, James Beatie and a rising Mike Weaver. Frankly, I think Jones was one of Holmes more underrated opponents. He certainly doesn't fall into the same category as many of the other contenders Holmes faced.

 

Disagreement is the fuel which powers this forum and keeps it going, so I welcome yours. In the case of Carl Williams, Larry of course never would have had an opportunity to defend against him in a rematch (not that he would have anyways).

My big beef with Holmes as champion has to do with the fact that he had nearly all his title fights in Las Vegas. Although I well understand the principle of going where the money is, this didn't compare well with the globetrotting Ali's various exotic venues in Africa, Europe and Asia, or Foreman's wanderings to Jamaica, Venuzuela and Japan. To a certain extent though, he compensated for that by putting up the title against a number of EBU champions (Evangelista, Zanon, Rodgriguez), as well as Puerto Rican Ocasio and Jamaican/Canadian Berbick. So at least in that context he was still a genuine world champion. Holmes and Dokes were good friends, and didn't seem much inclined to compete against each other.

Other champions get criticized for defending the title against over-the-hill opposition, and in rematches against challengers who they had already knocked out in a previous defense. (Louis/Simon, Louis/Buddy Baer, Louis/Conn.) In 22 consecutive matches during Larry's title run, he boxed 22 different opponents. Five of them were future world champions (Ocasio, Weaver, Berbick, Witherspoon, Smith). He defended that title against two former undisputed HW champions (Ali and Leon Spinks), and relinquished it to the undisputed LHW champion. How interesting that he gets criticized for defending against ten undefeated up and coming challengers!

Most champions fail to defend against all the worthy contenders, and by my reckoning, Pinklon Thomas is the most glaring omission from his record. Even there though, Needles and Coetzee didn't exactly set the world on fire with their ten round draw. The WBC had Greg Page as their top contender despite his three dismal performances against Chaplin and Berbick. He did get his shot at the WBC title with it's pussified 12 round limit after Larry abandoned it to stick with 15 rounders, and promptly lost that shot to Holmes conquest Witherspoon.

Now that I've mention it, I'd need to look this up to be sure, but Larry may have held the record for the most different title challengers of any defending champion in history (certainly in a single division).

 

The analogy I remember being applied to Jones is that he was the reincarnation of Buster Mathis. I believe he had pneumonia at the time of his title shot with Holmes, but he showed excellent upper body reflexes early. The way he held his hands up and the quickness with which he moved them gave the impression that he could effortlessly snatch flies out of thin air. He could also flick his head quickly to evade blows. Unfortunately, he had little power, his best punch being a short chopping right, and he appeared to have rather short arms for someone of his size. However, he was one of the most unique talents to ever challenge for the big enchilada.

 

Page earned his #1 ranking with his defeats of Tillis, Snipes, and Larry Frazier, and by the end of the year, was also #1 for Coetzee's belt.

 

A fine post built on fact rather than excuse.

 

Exactly, Page beat Snipes in an eliminator for the right to be Holmes mandatory defense, which he was due to make. Snipes he beat the well regarded Berbick and put him out of the picture. Page had beaten Tillis.

 

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Spinks ONLY became champ, because he was at the right place at the right time. If Ali could not get by a 7-0 novice. Than Ali was RELLY over the hill. Holmes could have beating Spinks in 78 no problems.

 

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Yes John,

We all know what a great world beater good ol' Greg was.

Outside of his losses to Berbick, Witherspoon, Tubbs, Bugner, Bey, Wills and oh.......Just about everybody.......He was surely an all time great.

 

I watched Leroy Jones fight in the amatuers and Pro's, he was a fat, slow boxer, who was not much of a puncher, I remember Tom Bethea(a middleweight) beating him up in the 28th st. gym in N.Y. city (Howie Albert and Gil Clancey's gym) Evangelista and Rodriguez were bums,Ledoux was a tough jouneyman but really limited his best fight was a draw vs Norton), Ossie Ocasio had 13 fights, Frazier 10, Leon Spinx 10-2-2 (KO'din 1 by Coetzee in a few fight before that) David Bey was 14-0 but lost 6 of his next 7 fights after Holmes and went 5-3-1 in his last 9 fights. Weaver was 19-8 . going into the Holmes fight and that fight gave him confidence. Weaver should have gotten a rematch,especially after he won a title.Witherspoon was 16-0 and Williams was 15-0 and a lot of people felt they beat Larry but Larry never rematched them. Thomas had a moment,Dokes, Page, Coetzee proberly the best fighters other than Holmes and Big John Tate looked ok for a bit but that fight never materialized after Tate was strectched by Weaver and went downhill from there. I liked Larry as a fighter right after the Norton fight but was waiting for a unification or for him to fight the best of his era which he did not. Cooney fought 5 rounds vs Jimmy Young on 5/25/80 but fought only 2 times both 1st round ko's until he fought Larry for the title 6/11/82, so he fought 2 rounds in 2 years.(and it was NO secret that Conney had a bad COKE problem) His fight against Scott was stopped by a Thumb in the eye and the James Smith fight was going tough for Larry until he got that thumb in Bonecrushers eye(Smith dogged it) Still Larry did have a nice run (very protected) and WE can not forget that King was caught Paying off John Ort of the ring Magazine to obtain a ranking. I am a boxing fan but old school, I was fustrated at the time even though I liked Larry chances vs the guys he did not fight. My doubts were that Larry got rocked by Snipes(a so so puncher) and dropped and Dropped hard from 1 punch(no Shame) by Shavers, aS A FAN I WAS ROBBED OF THE EXCITEMENT OF WATCHING HOLMES fight a very good right hand puncher like Coetzee, Dokes ,Page, Thomas, Weaver (rematch) or Tate, and rematches with fighters that deserved them. I Hate to look like I Hate and I dont but I have to say it like I saw it then

 

If Wladimir Klitschko announced his next fight against an opponent the equivalent of Lorenzo Zanon, Scott LeDoux or Lucien Rodriguez there'd be a TON OF CRITICISM falling on Wlad.

Actually, some of Holmes' challengers you would scoff at their chances of giving a 2007 Holyfield any sort of fight. Holmes probably fought one or two you wouldn't count on to get past Vinny Maddalone, in all honesty.

I dont doubt Holmes's greatness, but it's true that a lot of his title opposition was absolute ****.

 

Sadly, I have to agree.

Although I will always view Holmes as a great champion, a lot of the guys he fought were so bad that some of them might even fall into the category of tomato can. Scott Ledoux was a textbook example of the type challenger that I'm talking about. I mean, who in the hell did that guy ever beat to warrant fighting for the greatest title on earth? Christ, I think I'd have to rate Chuck Wepner higher than Ledoux. Leon Spinks was another one. He got his ass handed to him in one round by Coetzee, plus he drew with Scott Ledoux, and of course he gets a title shot. Tex Cobb gets beat by Dokes and an aging Norton, plus his last fight before facing Holmes was against Jeff Shelburg, and low and behold, he gets a title shot. Lucien Rodriguez, Alfredo Evangelista and Lorenzo Zanon couldn't knockout a guy even if they hit him with a club, unless of course if they were beating on each other, which they did on numerous occasions. Holmes may as well have been fighting the three stooges. Ossie Ocasio was barely a heavyweight with a cruiser build and only had 13 fights. His only claim to fame at that point was a couple of very close decsions over a washed up young.

The rest of Holmes opponents, I don't think so badly of, as some often do. Although, Witherspoon, Smith, Williams, M. Frazier, Berbick, Snipes and Cooney were on the inexperienced side without too many fights, I still say they were fairly qualified challengers who had good records and were coming off big wins. Additionally, Scott Frank and Leroy Jones were probably not as bad as people give them credit for, although I'll agree that Page, Thomas and Dokes should have gotten a crack at Holmes before some of these guys did.