Holy Crap Ray Mercer

Mercer lost to Kimbo. So what? Mercer should lose every fight he fights in MMA. I mean the guy has been washed up as a boxer for years now and he's 48 yrs old. The fact that he could go in there and dominate a much younger, former MMA champion so easily goes to show how effective boxing is against MMA.

 

Now some of you guys that are so pro boxing should at least know that anything can happen in a fight. You should also know that styles make fights.

Tim Sylvia is perfect for most professional boxers. Sylvia does not go for takedowns, does not initiate clinches, and his striking is inept to anyone near being a professional striker. Tim Sylvia is good in mma because he is big, tough(as in pain tolerance, chin is another topic), and the timing of his career in mma. Sylvia rose to prominence during the UFC's weakest era above 205 lbs.

If you truly understand boxing, and have experienced boxing along with other forms of fighting, something should be very apparent to you. If a boxer that only knows how to box fights someone that knows how to grapple, then all the grappler has to do is cover his head and run straight into the boxer and initiate the clinch. The boxer's only choices are to run around and hope to land a debilitating body punch. If the clinch ever happens, fights over. That's the same in mma. If the boxer has time to land a punch, of course the boxer can win. That is more than likely the least often occurrence though.

 

Edit: Damn rekcutnevets I didn't mean to basically copy what you said, lol.

Styles make fights. It is a bit of a tired cliche but it is absolutely true.

In boxing it is true. Certain boxers beat certain other boxers because of stylistic differences. In MMA this is magnified to a much much greater degree. Even the absolutely most stylistically different boxers don't compare to the common stylistic differences in MMA. This should be totally undebatable. Yet you assume that there is an "mma" style that applies to all fighters in MMA.

In MMA there are fighters that can rise to the top and still be at a disadvantage against pro-boxers in MMA fights, particularly if they fight using a terrible gameplan. The real question here is, why was Tim Sylvia as successful as he was in MMA?

The answer? He was able to outbox relatively (when compared to former championship contender) poor boxers and not get taken down. Tim Sylvia didn't win fights by taking fighters to the ground, he won them by standing and punching. He originally scheduled a boxing match with Mercer, because hey, he wanted to prove that he was really good at standing and boxing and he basically found out he wasn't.

My point? If Chuck Lidell thought he was going to beat David Haye in a boxing match he would lose. But, he would maybe be smart enough to use his wrestling background to his advantage in an mma fight. If he wasn't smart enough, or didn't have any offensive wrestling tools to use, he would probably lose.

MMA styles are wildly wildly different than other MMA styles, and the basic sprawl and brawl style, if not adapted, is a horrible choice against a world class boxer like Mercer was.

Imagine if the first round of the UFC1 tournament was all that there was, and Royce never moved on to the subsequent rounds to win the tournament. People might have thought Savate was the most efficient fighting style in the world. Mercer's boxing beat a limited stylistically easy MMA fighter means almost nothing.

Good for Mercer though.

 

Sylvia although not a great boxer, still outboxed his fair share of HW's in MMA. Sylvia attempted a low kick which Mercer shrugged off and promptly sent Sylvia tumbling down like a tree.

Mercer/Kimbo to this day is an EXHIBITION MATCH, primarily because one of the participants (MERCER) absolutely refused to fight on the ground. According to Mercer there was also a gentlemans agreement to stand and trade, Kimbo acknowledged this in pre-fight trash talk ie. "i'm going to knock Mercer out." Kimbo was previously trained with Bas Rutten for this bout, enough time to get acclimated with fundamental grappling aspects of the sport. While fighting Mercer, he ignored the gentlemans agreement, grabbed a leg and took Mercer down. Mercer despite being an old, washed up 50 year old boxer managed to actually get up onto his feet and block almost every on coming punch thrown by Kimbo. Kimbo punched himself out and proceeded to take Mercer back down, at that point Mercer sunk in a half assed guillotine attempt, actually put Kimbo on his back shortly afterwards only to be submitted with a guillotine by Kimbo. Shortly after the fight, Mercer was so upset he almost punched Kimbo while Kimbo laid on his back. This indicated that something definitely wasnt right, and Mercer was at least under the impression that a gentlemans agreement was in place which would explain how the fight went.

So, basically what im trying to say is Kimbo/Mercer has a huge asteriks beside it because it actually wasnt a REAL SANCTIONED FIGHT but rather an exhibition between a participant who refused to grapple and was under the impression a gentlemans agreement was in place.

Mercer/Sylvia had no such agreements and if there were any agreements it was broken BY SYLVIA when he attempted a low kick. Not to mention, all the pre-fight trash talk indicated that this was anything but a boxing match but rather an MMA match. It explains why Mercer was so upset to begin with.

Lastly, Mercer is 48 years old, hes no representative of Boxing. So for you to claim that someone just needs to apply basic grappling fundamentals against the boxer to beat him is absurd. Lesnar applied the most basic grappling fundamentals on Mir and smashed him. But im sure you wont mention that. Mercer is NOT an example of how a boxer would do against an MMA'er because Mercer is WAY past his prime and shouldnt be fighting. Its amazing MMA fans still try to make these arguments despite their best examples being a 50 year old Mercer.

 

Yes im sure its that easy. :shock:

I'm sure the boxer will be completely cooperative and let the MMA'er walk into him like a bafoon.

And if Sylvia is perfect for a boxer than doesn that make MMA look bad? You're essentially saying Sylvia had absolutely no skills but was able to win because of his mediocre striking and size. And pre-Sylvia was a much weaker era. UFC HW division is better now but saying the UFC had the weakest era above 205 is ridiculous and inaccurate.

 

sylvia is a dumb ass...let stand in front of a boxer and hope for the best.....lol

 

because of his mediocre striking and size and TAKEDOWN AND SUB DEFENSE which are both unimportant against a boxer. If an mma fighter has a style thatr forces him to box or causes him to choose to box, then yes, he will lose to a boxer.

 

How about Matt Skelton getting ragdolled first attempt, by a grappler "just running into him"?

Surely a guy who is as good of a boxer as Sylvia is an MMA fighter PLUS having legit kickboxing skills is a pretty good example.

Your understanding of the "Gentlemans agreements" is pure speculative, and not in line with what the promoter of the Kimbo fight, or the facts of the Sylvia fight say.

Kimbo/Mercer was an exhibition due to the fact that neither could get a license, primarily because one or both knew they would fail a drug test.

****ing regardless, if boxing is such the golden ticket, he had been training in boxing, he should have been able to use his magic timing and movement to flatline this bum off the streets with no background in anything but big beards. If anything, it just shows that simply preparing for boxing is going to get your ass beat in MMA if the other guy has been working grappling, even if that other guy is "Kimbo gets KO'd by a one footed falling away jab Slice" all Mercer had to do was land something that strong (he threw some much stronger than Petruzelli)

Sylvia/Mercer was originally scheduled as a boxing match. Pure, simple, full gloves, hands only, boxing match. The commision said no, the fight had to become MMA. This was only a few days beforehand. At that point you have an old boxer who had been training for a boxing fight, and an MMA striker who hasn't attempt a takedown I can remeber since he got his arm broken in half by Mir. Some say there was an agreement to stay standing, some don't.

Regardless of any agreement, Sylvia trained for it as a boxing match, he did no work on MMA leading up to the fight, and he is hardly a guy with a great background in takedowns to be able to just have that ready, it is something he would need to prepare for.

Basically Timmy went out there with a training camp of boxing rules and boxing strategy against a much better boxer. Had he actually trained for an MMA fight, and worked on his takedowns, which again I haven't seen since Mir broke his arm, he might not have fought such a stupid fight.

 

Tim Sylvia has been dropped by overhand rights in 3 of his last 5 fights. Ray Mercer can knock out someone with an overhand right, shocker.

Art Jimmerson, boxing record 33-18, was 0-0 in mma when he faced a fellow 0-0 fighter in Royce Gracie. Jimmerson was subbed by Gracie in 2 min 18 sec.

Melton Bowen, boxing record 35-9, was 0-0 in mma when he faced an 1-0 fighter in Steve Jennum. Jennum submitted Bowen in 1 min and 27 sec.

James Warring, former cruiserweight champion in boxing, was 2-0 when he faced a 3-0 Renzo Gracie. Gracie submitted Warring in 2 min and 46 sec.

Royce Gracie, Steve Jennum, and Renzo Gracie were all undersized against their boxer opponents.

As I said before; If a boxer has time to land a punch, that boxer can knock someone out. As I also stated earlier, it is more likely to end with the boxer taken down and defeated. MMA fighters against boxers stats speak for themselves at a probably 80% win ratio.

 

Ray Mercer 48 yrs old vs. 33 Tim Slyvia, former UFC HW champion of the world. Mercer knocked Slyvia's ass out in 9 seconds.

 

Yes, that did happen. What the **** is wrong with you acting like you are bringing something NEW or unknown to the discussion? It's annoying as hell.

 

You've brought nothing new to the argument.

Let's look at some footage:

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I put the wrong time for Bowen and Jennum earlier.

 

Oh Jesus,

"Boxers James “Bonecrusher” Smith and Leon Spinks were both considered for UFC 1 before settling on Art Jimmerson. Jimmerson subsequently backed out of the event once he learned the rules (as he had a fight with Thomas Hearns a month later) but Seg offered him $20,000 just to show, making him the highest paid appearance fighter at UFC 1 (the majority received $1000 for initial appearance). During the event, upon viewing the brutality, Jimmerson’s corner conspired backstage to throw in the towel at the first sign of trouble, which they did, but the towel caught on the fence and the referee did not see it. Jimmerson then verbally quit."

Jimmerson and his manager had no real intention of fighting . In fact Jimmerson didnt even bring any gloves to the arena. In the arena Rorian Gracie insisted that he wear gloves v Royce. Jimmerson couldnt find any gloves nearby to buy. Someone found 1 and gave it to him. Jimmerson apparently had seen the violence of the first few matches and it freaked him out. Plus people told him dont upset Royce or he will break your arm. Jimmerson decided to move around and tap as soon as it went to the floor. In fact watch teh fight closely and u will see that as soon as Royce takes him down the corner throw in a towel but the referee ignores it.
Either way it was pathetic of Jimmerson and he deserves all the abuse he gets now as a) he practically threw the fight. b) he accepted $20,000 and didnt bother putting in an effort.

"In 1995, the legendary Eric Paulson, a 10 win MMA vet and trainer of Sean Sherk, and himself trained in disciplines including Freestyle and Greco-Roman Wrestling, Tae Kwon Do, Jeet Kune Do, Filipino Kali/Eskrima, Catch Wrestling and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu under Rorion Gracie, was beaten to a pulp by long retired, 37 year old fomer Boxing titleholder James Warring, who was never world class in boxing, but at least came to fight, reminding us again that in MMA there are many ways to secure the win."

And Melton Bowen? C'mon, before he fought Steve Jennum, Bowen had lost 3 of his last 6 fights, one of those losses coming at the hands of Craig Payne who had a 12-20 career record. Melton Bowen was a straight up journeymen.

The bottom line is the best examples you guys can come up with are from the early 1990's which shouldnt even be taken seriously for a variety of reasons.

"MMA fighters against boxers stats speak for themselves at a probably 80% win ratio."

Where did you get that statistic? 99% of statistics are made up. But yeah, obviously a highly credible grappler is going to have an advantage over a boxer. I never said they wouldnt. The bottom line is a boxer given where the fight takes place can win a fight in MMA. There is nothing revolutionary about MMA standup, its ****. The amount of good strikers in MMA, I can count on one hand. If you're a grappler than the ground is where you'd take the fight against a boxer, if you're a one-dimensional striker, you're in for a rough but short night. And when I say boxer, I dont mean the Marcus Davis's, Art Jimmersons, Matt Skeltons, Melton Bowens, Chris Lytles of the world. I mean actually credible boxers not the chumps MMA fans seem to name frequently in these MMA vs boxing debates.

 

You've certainly given an attitude that doesn't make that clear, but its good to see.

What do you think of a fight between a boxer and a MMA strker like Overeem or Manhoef? Or a guy who is a thai clinch expert?