Holyfield; beat 7 (seven) lineal HW champions

Just as a point of curiosity, are we all in agreement on when Holyfield started juicing? Is there such a consensus? To me, it seems quite obvious looking at his physique from the first to the second Bowe fight, that’s where it began (probably as a direct consequence of getting occasionally ragdolled by Bowe when he lost his title).

But what’s everyone else think?

 

So many fighters juiced. Holyfield just got caught up in the biggest scandal because he wasn't buying it from a random gym guy. Holyfield never tested positive and he was confirmed to have bought them red handed. So what does that tell you about the prospects of juice and the likelihood of being caught?

 

It might be, but there is not evidence of that.

What is more, he took HGH.

 

No it doesn't, IMO.
I guess it depends on your own personal criteria for an ATG top ten - and I think most people would rate on more than wins over lineal champs?
The fact that I'm not really a fan of 'lineal ' championships aside (and that's a separate argument), as others have said context is key. Some of those wins were over aged former champs. Others, like Rahman, don't mean as much as some of his other individual wins (does the fact he was lineal, briefly, count for that much? He was, in reality, a top 10 contender).
For me, I rate on quality of opposition, longevity and dominance. I don't really look into lineal stats. I've always thought Holyfield has some great individual wins. But he was rarely consistent at elite level - he would win as many as he would lose. He's just outside my top 10, personally.

 

I would say after the 1st Bowe fight aswell Holyfield put on 12 pounds and it was all muscle in such a short space of time definitely not possible without steroids.

 

How many did they beat when they were reigning as lineal is the real question.

 

Do you base this on believing all of Holyfield’s opponents were ‘clean’ then? I honestly get the argument and the tarnished reputation but he was also fighting in probably the most juiced and least tested era in heavyweight boxing.

 

I don’t really see how Holyfield juicing is all that big of a knock on him legacy wise honestly. It’s not like Holyfield was the only one on the juice, he was just the only one dumb enough to get caught. And if we factored intellect into historical rankings then dozens of fighters would lose their spots. Does anybody really think Tyson was all natty when we know the type of stuff he put inside of him? 40 y/o Foreman who could barely make it 5 rounds without gassing horribly can now make it 12 rounds easy with energy to spare now yet never took anything apart from Big Macs lol. There was no VADA testing in the 80s, most of those guys would have juiced too but they never got caught so we just pretend the godly physiques some had and the stamina to fight 15 rounders at a brake neck pace were just because they did a lot of roadwork and push-ups. In a sport where you can make millions when you win, why run the risk of losing just by trying to by heroic by fighting clean? Now, criticising Evander for fighting dirty with his head or for his inconsistency, sure, I can get behind that but the Evan Fields controversy is just blown out of proportion imo. Barely any professional athletes in the last 30 years (at least) have never taken something. It may sound cynical, but this is the reality of sports in the modern day.

 

The "Evans Fields" story (originally published in SI) linked him to HGH use during a specific time period, from June through Sept of 2004, when he was preparing for an eventual comeback vs. Larry Donald (which, ironically, he looked terrible in).

I don't condone or excuse PED use by any athlete, but Holy seems to be the only boxer that people attempt to retroactively wipe away his entire career achievements based on linkage to PED use at one specific time. Other fighters who've been caught or linked to doping at one specific time, i.e.: Canelo, Morales, Mosley, RJJ, Tarver, etc., don't seem to be held to the same standard.

 

About the steroids, I don't hold it against him too much until the comeback. As much as he likely used them during the first section of his career, it wasn't a big enough thing to override his accomplishments then, especially when he had to deal with heart issues in ring because of it.

 

Quawi claims Holyfield was on the juice for their rematch all the way back in 1987. Not sure I buy that, it didn’t show on the scales. He steadily put on muscle mass post the first Bowe fight.
As for defeating 7 lineal champions while impressive it doesn’t automatically make you a top 10 lock. Defeating prime contenders matters more.

 

He appears on the level to me until 1993, so I don’t subtract anything from him, personally, prior to that.

 

Not for me.

Only Bowe and Moorer were close to their best when Holyfield beat them. Neither were ATG's and Evander went a combined 2-3 versus them.

Holyfield was a great p4p fighter, though.