Holyfield beat a better version of Foreman than Ali did

I don't think so. I just can't see Foreman in his 20's losing to Morrison and Schulz (I know he won on the cards, but we all know what happened) and have a close fights with the likes of Alex Stewart and Lou Savarese.

 

Big George couldn't have beaten prime Joe Frazier or Norton imo. If Morrison beat him, Norton would have.

 

That would be an interesting matchup.

 

nah.

 

No prime Foreman doesn't go life and death with Alex Stewart and doesn't lose to Tommy Morrison. Both of them would be knocked out in 1 or 2 rounds by a prime Foreman.

 

To be fair, Frazier was not prime against Foreman.

FOTC clearly took something out of him and he was never the same.

 

Foreman wasn't his best that night its why I have Foreman as my HW GOAT. And while Foreman probably wasn't drugged just the fact he thought he was shows where he was mentally.

But it really doesn't matter. 25 year old Foreman on auto pilot was on a different level than 42 year old George. 70s Foremans scored 12 knockdowns in his 3 pre Ali title fights. 90s Foreman only scored 1 in 7. 90s Foreman lost 11-1 to Tommy Morrison 70s Foreman almost outpointed Jimmy Young without knockdowns. Foreman didn't fight like he did in the 90s in the 70s because why would he? 90s Foreman was fighting the way he did because he had too. I often argue that Foreman would have knocked out Ali or Jimmy Young or coasted off early 10-8 rounds on most other days. Do you think 42 year old Foreman could have either outpointed Ali or Jimmy Young even on occasion? Could he have kept the fight close enough for knockdowns to matter? How about knocking out Ali or Young who were never stopped in the whole 70s? The answer to all 3 is no on most if not all nights.

While 90s Foreman could outpoint a lot of good HWs against the best guys he was tiring them out hoping to catch them at the end and flip the outcome. That is a strategy you use because its the only one you have not because its ideal or consistantly works. It was a viable strategy Foreman was capable of executing but whether ahead or behind he got 1 knockdown in his 90s title fights. He was unlucky to not score more but thats not the point he was trying to win close fights hoping his power gave him an edge . In the 70s he was a knockdown machine.

One small statistical advantage 90s Foreman has over 70s Foreman was he was never knocked down in the 90s while he got knocked down a few times in the 70s. And thats because despite the stats I just mentioned 90s Foreman still was the hardest hitter in the division at least in the early 90s. Holyfield said he was the hardest hitter he fought and Holyfield fought all the 90s top HWs. 90s Foremans chin wasn't superior he just got knocked down less. The Ali and Young knockdowns couldn't be attributed to Foremans chin being bad and 90s Foreman didn't fight a Lyle.

 

i agree but that was just the worst possible matchup for frazier. goes similar whatever.

 

Whenever I see 90s Foreman>70s Foreman I instantly think they are trying to rehabilitate the 90s HW divisions reputation. Foremans performances againt Holyfield and Moorer forever elevated the 70s over the 90s because Foreman in his 40s was still competitive with top fighters and you can't get around that even for Lennox.

These sorts of arguments seem like a thinly veiled attempt to get around that.

While Holmes 90s comeback wasn't nearly as impressive and he had way worse SOS than Foreman he still got 4 rounds against Holyfield. Did Holmes also magically improve in the 90s?

People talk about Foremans wild swings like it wasn't the most effective gameplan in the divisions history or something. Should he have risked losing a methodical decision instead to impress people in the future because the 3 knockdown rounds weren't showcasing his technical boxing ability?

 

He looked fine defending his title the next 2 times out.

Frazier was 29 when he lost to Foreman and hadn't been knocked down in almost 7 years(if I'm not missing a knockdown after Bonvena I). What is the historical precedent for calling an undefeated 29 year champion(28 at FOTC) washed?

The third Ali/Frazier fight is the one that took years off both mens life.

 

1. Who wouldn't look fine defending against 2 unranked stiffs?

2. Their's a reason he took a year off and defended against men of those caliber in the first place.

3. Numerous accounts in the media noticed he was not the same.

"Joe has bad headaches but he’ll be alright. But not the same! No, not the same!" -Florence Frazier after FOTC

“I, for one, think that Joe didn’t look at all like that indestructible machine…my conclusion: Frazier has lost interest in the sport of flat noses…Well, Joe Frazier is a Pro. He has made a lot of money. He is ready to retire. Anytime. And now is anytime…He proved to be the best man of his time…Joe Frazier became the most important athlete that night of March 8, 1971 when he displaced Muhammad Ali as number one." Jose Torres after Frazier's defense against Stander or Daniels (I forgot which one it was).

"Muhammad Ali had a big hand in the demise of the world heavyweight champion. Without taking, one iota of credit, away from Foreman's electrifying and sensational piece of work, Frazier was not the human howitzer who beat Ali on March, 8, 1971. It was generally agreed by those of us who saw that fight in New York that Frazier took a terrible head beating in slugging his way to a fifteen round decision. And from his sluggish showing Monday night, it was apparent he had never recovered."

""i just didn't realize i beat Joe Frazier that bad. I knew I defeated Joe Frazier but now the people see how bad I did beat him. When he fought two nobodys I knew he was done. Joe made a big mistake in his false illusion of being great. He didn't have no action, only eight rounds in two years." - Muhammad Ali

Right in this article here https://news.google.com/newspapers?...b9QAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4V8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6176,2571228 prior to the Foreman fight, the caption itself says (or asks) "Frazier washed up?" And says his two recent bouts prior to facing Foreman "suggested to some people that the champion might be slipping a bit"

 

Yeah, he was never quite the same even though he had some fine performances afterwards. But probably the main difference was that he wasn't as dedicated after FOTC anymore. 69-71 to Frazier should have taken out guys like Danlels and Stander in 1-2 rounds.