Holyfield beat a better version of Foreman than Ali did

Important to not confuse being more skilled with being better, 90s Foreman may have been more patient and technically sound but he simply wasn't a better fighter or a more formidable version of George.

 

The funny thing is even young Foreman had way better stamina and power than Morrison, when did Foreman start to wane in the rumble? By 6? That's 6 rounds of more or less nonstop unloading full power punches with lethal intentions and plenty missed which is even more draining, who did Foreman have worse stamina than? Frazier, Ali? Realistically he was a bit above average probably on par with guys like Bonavena or Chuvalo, probably better stamina than Liston

 

Better stamina than Liston??? Are you ****ing nuts?

 

When did Liston ever swing for 6 rounds like Foreman did in the rumble? Foreman was also known for cutting off the ring which requires movement that outpaces the opponent's footwork, didn't Liston hate having to chase opponents? Or maybe that was another fighter someone posted that about and I'm misremembering

 

Foreman was exhausted by the 4th round.

When did Foreman in the 70s ever go 12 rounds? Liston went 12 rounds with Machen easily, maintaining a steady pace and actually threw more punches in the last round than he did in the first.

Foreman on the other hand was dead tired against Young by the 8th round despite throwing nearly nothing in the early rounds, and was flat out exhausted by the 12th.

Liston's endurance is levels above Foreman. It's not even close enough for debate.

 

These revisionist are trying to make it out like Foreman improved after a 10 year layoff probably in order to discredit Ali. He paced himself better through the rounds, that's it.

70s Foreman > 90s Foreman

 

Can I ask which win or list of wins in Foreman 2 , make you think he was better than Foreman 1 ?

 

You echoed my thoughts.
Taken in isolation the career of Foreman 2 was hardly remarkable, save for the creditable fact of it being done by a man of a certain age.
He beat a list of no names, followed by a couple of faded names then got beaten comfortably by Morrison and Holyfield and was on the wrong end of a steady beating by Moorer until he landed THAT punch.
After that he avoided anyone who was relevant.
If any other fighter had the career that F2 had , he wouldn't be rated as anything out of the ordinary.

 

The type of exhaustion first career Foreman experienced was a form of hell - and there’s no worse place for your tank to run dry than in a boxing ring.

 

Is there any high level pro athlete who was better at 42 than they were at 25?

 

But we also have to allow for the unique strategy, durability, skills and fluidity of Ali making Foreman look (relatively) more clumsy and ill strategised than he did against any other first career opponent.

Remember, a 22 yo Ali somehow made Liston also appear that much less an intelligent, technical boxer than he actually was.

What Foreman was trying to put to Ali in Zaire would’ve been translated far more successfully against Evander - and Holy may well have gone by the wayside inside of 5 rounds.

Certainly, “old” and so much slower Foreman absolutely rocked Evander with a single overhand right, IIRC.

It’s not unreasonable to extrapolate for the worst for Evander against a much younger and quicker Foreman.

After obliterating Frazier and Norton, Foreman didn’t just turn “bad” against Ali - Muhammad had a LOT to do with how Foreman “appeared”.

Muhammad beat a better version of Foreman - and he beat him better than Evander did - via emphatic KO.

 

So round 6 was when he waned, in what fight did Liston throw 300 full power shots inside of 6?

 

Those stats are wildly off. This is far more accurate. http://178.79.148.226:8080/bout/127824/george-foreman-vs-muhammad-ali

Foreman's output was drastically low against Young and he still managed to tire out (though he was admittedly not acclimatized to the environment..... which is his own fault).

He was sucking air by the end of 10 rounds against Peralta both times, while Liston was fresh as a daisy at that same mark against Whitehurst, and also at the end of 12 rounds against Machen.

Since you like stats so much, here's another for you. Liston on average, threw more punches per round than any other heavyweight champ in history.

 

yes, George Foreman a pure phenomenon...
and seriously, I have to admit that you are all somewhat right, which is a kind of paradox. I think the young Foreman was better than the old one. Young Foreman would have crushed Morrison, Schulz and maybe Holyfield, but old Foreman was better prepared tactically and mentally for Holyfield than young Foreman was for Ali. I just think that with Ali there were several factors - the foreman was rusty, his fights were too easy and too short before Ali, he had bad tactics especially in those circumstances, and the place of the fight and the circumstances put terrible pressure on him that burned him. Plus, Ali was a style nightmare for George. What I will write is very controversial, but Foreman was a better fighter in the 1970s than Ali