Holyfield ist badly underrated at HW

They were career shortening fights which will rightfully live long in the memory. I would also agree that Bowe was ruined by them.

But, we can't base a study of the past on counter-factual theory. Bowe, for whatever reasons, never fulfilled his potential and we can't base much on what might of happened if they hadn't fought such a fight.

 

Schmeling got destroyed in his prime by Max Baer and lost to Steve Hamas. As well as a draw with uzcuden. He also lost to Sharkey. His 1 round embarrassing loss to gypsy Daniels.

Liston in or near his prime dominated pretty much everyone. His closest call was a 9 rounds to 3 decision over Eddie Machen. And he lost to Ali, whose the greatest or 2nd greatest heavyweight of all time. And if you bring up the Marty Marshall defeat (which was twice avenged) I’ll bring up Schmelings unavenged losses to Gains and Diekkman



Liston simply has no bad losses in his prime, like Schmeling does. And outside of the Louis win, listons resume blows Schmelings out of the water.

Consistency, longevity, dominance, all heavily favor Liston

 

Fighting way past his due date was his own fault. He tainted his legacy.

 

I rate Schmeling pretty highly, number 16. I just think Liston deserves a spot in the lower top 10


I do agree sharkey loss was a robbery

Don’t forget his battering of mickey walker, Impressive

 

He’s a troll

 

I disagree to some extent.

He got robbed awfully against Valuev and didn't lose to anyone who wasn't operating near the top of the division at the time he fought them.

Yes he probably would have beaten all who he lost to at his peak, but he was in his mid-late 40s and could still be considered in the top 10-15 in the division.

He didn't go out losing to all and sundry as some others have in history.

 

I think it’s very tight from 8 to about 18. They’re basically one level. It’s literally only because my criteria changed about higher placed champions needing to have been regarded as dominant. Everyone higher had a slightly more claim to actual dominance
.

 

I think if you perform admirably against top competition whilst being way past it kind of helps secure your legacy in some ways. Nothing beats retiring undefeated but not many have that luxury.

 

When you put it like that it makes me think maybe I should swap Holyfeild back in place of Frazier!

I think my rationale at the time was charles, Patterson, Walcott and Schmeling beat better champions though. Charles beat Louis and from that point was the real champ. Patterson won the title by knockout both times -each time against the worlds best heavyweight. Holyfeild is better than Walcott but I just can’t see him that far apart from Charles.

Holyfeild did crush Douglas mind, but Douglas never was regarded the worlds best and Bowe always loomed over him, then Lewis. At no point was Evander the real thing, although I admired him and rooted for him to beat Lewis. Holyfeild struggled with Larry and George which at the time put his rep at rock bottom. appreciation came much later, like beating Tyson. There was nobody looming over the other guys. But maybe that is a minor factor. I might be too harsh though?

 

Top 3 is too high for me. If not for the loss to Bowe, maybe. But even if Moorer was his first loss, he wouldn't have quite Holmes's jong period of dominance. But the win against Tyson might have made up for that.

Thinking about, he is closer to Holmes at 3 than I previously though. But the loss to Bowe probably separates them.

 

Bowe/Holy 1 was one of the best title fights I've seen at heavyweight. Whether it was as good as the TIM I well that' s rare air. I will say that Holy was giving up over 30 lbs to a big, skilled and prime Bowe.
As far as Joe you make some fair points. They both fought in tough eras. I think Evander lasted a little better.

 

Holyfield is over rated not under rated.

His entire rep is build on beating a Bodybuilding Tyson impersonator twice

He is 1-4 against Bowe /Lewis, with out the fan man he is 0-5, the Lewis draw is total BS.

He is 1-1 against a glass chinned feeble minded Light Heavy Moorer.....the same Moorer who got axed by slow as molasses Methusalem Foreman with ONE punch.

Went life and death with Crack head Cooper, had to come from behind against perpetual trial horse Mercer, almost clowned by Featherfist Vaughn Bean, a trilogy with Huggy Bear, granted he was on the downslope by then, needed his head to stop the glass chin of all glass chins Hasbeen........made two fossils look competitive for 24 rounds in Foreman/Holmes......and the list goes on and on.

Evan Fields was never consistent, ever, and is most likely the top PED abuser in Heavyweight history.

Btw, Douglas never showed up, not Holyfields fault but pretty much the entire top ten at the time would have beaten that Douglas who was the actually the real Douglas not the flash in the pan 15 sec of fame Tokyo Douglas.

The irony is that there is currently a thread about Tyson about his standings while a fair portion call him basically a slightly better version of the bum of the month club..........the same people who elevate Holyfield to the highest level because this bum turns all over sudden to Godzilla to enhance Holyfields legacy.

Without his two wins against the post prison Fraud Tyson, Holyfield pretty much lost every time he went into the Ring against the top talent in the division, fact not fiction, did he provide entertainment and gallant efforts, sure, but nevertheless he lost most of the time.

Holyfield IMO is similar to Frazier who in turn is 1-4 in his signature fights, twice used as a bowling ball and caught a forced exile rusty Ali at the right time ONCE.

 

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I’m pretty sure Holyfield is the only heavyweight who can be ranked in the top ten who definitely was using PEDs. Not speculatively, but definitely.