Holyfield Or Marciano - Chin

It is. It's also a pound-for-pound list, and Archie Moore is there primarily for his exceptional, jaw dropping work as a Light Heavyweight. Not accusing you directly, but if were going to be as intellectually dishonest as insinuating Archie Moore hit harder at heavyweight than Foreman, Lewis, Tyson, et al. because he scores higher on a p4p scale then it's crossed into an arena of delusion that doesnt merit discussion. Considering it's Marciano however, not at all surprising. :roll:

 

Cream and Wright were also past prime , as was Charles .
Rocco came along at exactly d right time , didn't he ?

 

Although most were past their 'physical' prime i wouldn't exactly say they were past their boxing prime. If that makes sense. Most say Walcott's best performances were Louis I and Marciano I, Moore had won IIRC 20 somethign of his previous matches, mostly by KO, and hadn't been KO'd in over 7 years when he fought Rocky. Age is only a factor if it affects their performace like obv. Joe Louis when he faced Marciano had been affected to a large extent while Walcott looked as sharp as ever.

 

I wish I would have a time machine and bring Marciano into todays scene and have him compete in todays Hwt...........a lot of folks posting in this thread would go awfully quite once they realize that his chin , skills, will and workrate would be , not by one but by a fairly large number, cracked, literally.

I can also say with absolute certainty that the uppercut Lewis hit VK in their encounter with would send Marciano into orbit.......

Man, I lovvvvve rose colored glasses.

 

Cream did not look that sharp in their rematch and another fact is that those were his last 2 fights , he was also Joe Louis' age , turned pro earlier than Louis did and fought Rocco later than Louis did , 38 in their 1st fight and 39 in d rematch , 4 comparison , Louis was 37 when he lost 2 Rocco .
Wright was 39 years old when they fought and he did lose almost every 1 important fight he had at heavy anyway , especially after fighting Rocco and had more than 3 fights behind him 4 every 1 fight Rocco had behind him by d time of their fight .
Charles was only 33 years old which was only 2 years older (but still older) than Rocco when they fought but already had more fights behind him by that point than Rocco had in his own point of retirement , in fact more than 50% more fights than what Rocco had in his retirement .

I guess all of these facts r irrelevant and unimportant .

 

I never said that they are irrelevant or unimportant, you did, I said too much shouldn't be drawn from how old they are if their performance isn't being affected. Joe Frazier by the time he was 32 was a spent force while Walcott looked great at 38. You seem to have a big focus on the ages of Rocky's opponents but what about if you flip it and consider Rocky started the fight game VERY late especially by those days standards. Majority of his opponents had a distinguished amateur pedigree and a number of pro fights under their belt by the time Rocky had put on boxing gloves for the first time in his life. In any case bar Louis would you favour any of these men at any point in their careers over a prime Rocky?

 

How about the uppercut Bowe landed on Holyfield in the 10TH ROUND?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mCJhSJli1c&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mCJhSJli1c&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/ame]

 

They both had great chins.

 

Maybe they looked great 2u because of who they fought ?
If 32 yeard old Joe "spent force" Frazier would have taken on Markegiano , he would have looked even greater , same with Mike "Rusty Iron" Tyson at age 36 (Lewis Tyson) , not 2 mention d most spent of them all George "comeback" Foreman at age 45 .
They (aside from Frazier maybe) were still spent by that time but would have looked greater than u can imagine against Rocco .

Regarding your question of who would i favor of Rocco's opponents 2 beat him if they were in their prime my answer is that Charles especially belonged at heavy less than Wright did and at their prime both men were even more remote from heavies than they were past it . Regarding Cream coming 2 think about it he looked better vs Charles (3rd fight) than he looked vs Rocco and even then he was past his prime . Cream never enjoyed / had his prime due 2 financial problems in his life , he somehow (WW2 ?) had a more than a 4 yrs layoff from 1940 until 1944 which most probably would have been his prime supposing he wouldn't have had all those problem and that layoff .
Then he had a nice run during 1944-1946 (it can b argued that it was 1944-1947) only solidifying d most reasonable claim that he was still close 2 his prime by then . Yet he fought Rocco even 8 yrs after that period had ended .
I guess "prime" Cream would have made Rocco seem even more amateurish than he did although a stoppage win 4 Rocco is still a realistic scenario but just because "prime" Cream was never inside a boxing ring under professional rules , worse than d consensus about Muhammad Ali . Rocco's opponents , while possibly d most relevant of his time were just irrelevant , but this does not make him special , because Louis' , young Ali's , Patterson's , almost every1's prior 2 Louis opposition sucked just as much , and Frazier's managers made it sure that Foreman aside , Frazier was protected as well , d same goes 4 Holmes also . So don't think i m hatin on your man .

 

You have no proof, just some imaginary fairy sitting on your shoulder spouting BS.

 

What? I thought body punches transferred the strength of the puncher to the receiver.

Rocky was never really hurt + Holyfield was KOed = ?

Arguably Holyfield fought in a better era. However, there is not enough information to be certain with the certainty of some of the posters here.

If you are such a damned soothsayer, go and make money betting on boxing, or is it only Rocky Marciano that you are so sure about.

 

nope but fair is fair. if i'm going to bring the ring top 100 list into the equation purely as a measure of chin based on number of fighters on their resume, it has to be applied equally to both.

having said that, you pointed out a very true fact: holyfied has much harder/better punchers AT HEAVYWEIGHT. if you look at their respective positions on that list, marciano has the 1, 4 and 53 position while holyfield has the (this is going by memory) 9, 16, 27 position on his ledger.

that is of course misleading as i'd consider louis far more past his prime than any of the 3 on holyfield's list, moore was a great heavy but his punches were more effective at 175 and walcott had dynamite power at his best but he wasn't in the tyson/foreman league.

basically the list taken out of context makes things look differently than it does if you analyze the fighters and their respective careers.

 

A punch is a punch...Cooper hit Holyfield with a bomb. It actually spun him to the right a little...huge shot. He hit the iron chinned Joe Hipp with the same sort of shot and right away Hipp was in trouble.

I think there was something seriously wrong with Evander in Bowe III. When ever did Holyfield start getting winded by the 3rd round in any other fight? He was visibly gassed after only a few rounds and fading fast.
Marciano has a great chin, nobody can say otherwise. However, I think Evander's is even better.

 

There is a point to be made here and it is a defining one in the career of Marciano ... there is a difference between a fighter being in the prime of his career and his physical prime ... Walcott and Moore got their breaks late in their careers .. putting the obvious reasons aside, to their credit they were able to adapt and adjust the remaining balance of their skill sets to perform on a world class level against limited opposition ... they were terrific fighters and able to defeat most of the very best ... much of this was predicated on the stylistic match up and the level of their opposition .. however, to say they were in their physical prime is nonsense. It is simply not possible that a 38 or 39 year old man has the speed, power, strength or stamina that he had ten years earlier at the championship level ..

Walcott in 51 and Moore in 55 were terrific fighters who had modified their skill sets like baseball pitchers who lost some of their fast balls but developed other pitchers to supliment .. and it was good enough to defeat most of the fighters in that era who were not that large or fast or strong by later standards. Louis was not as adjusted but still a large man ( for the day) with a stiff jab, a big heart and an aura. However, when faced with the best opposition of the day, a Marciano or a Patterson, their limitations became evident .. a Marciano's toughness and relentless stamina or a Patterson's blazing speed and power were simply too much .. one level too high to climb or fudge ..

Neither Louis, Walcott or Moore could maintain their early success against Marciano as the fights progressed because they lacked the speed and stamina. Their legs gave out. They were forced to fight in spurts and began to take more and more punishment against a much younger, more powerful fighter ... watch the early rounds of the Moore fight where he tattoos Marciano often and hard with fast, hard combinations ... he was forced to fight at a far different output than against a Valdez and he could not maintain it .. he was forced out of his zone .. the same with Walcott who had to fight in spurts as the fight progressed. They were basically beat down ...

Marciano's career is defined by perfection. He never lost a fight. He was a brutal, tough, gritty , determined, hard hitting, terrifically conditioned fighter who came along at a perfect time. His opposition was good but limited and made to order for his skill set. Small, light, faded, older, Charles, Cockell and Moore were blown up light heavyweights and LaStarza was close himself .... in addition, finally, Rocky was very smart, smart enough to get out on top, resist the temptations to come back for the money and stay retired ... truly a hat trick, a perfect storm of a career and again it is to his credit ... that to me is more than enough of a legacy. The rest from those who claim him to be one in a century, a super human in stamina, chin , power, will , ect .. above other warriors such as a Frazier, a Langford, a Holyfield in these departments and that it would more than compensate against over whelming physical match ups against bigger, terrific fighters in their own prime, to me this is fantasy and hero worship ... I understand it because Rocky is a sainted fighter to many for a myriad of reasons but do not buy it ...

How many would take a 37 year old Marciano against a 29 year old Louis ?

 

Nice post, he grant. I love Rocky, but he had certain limitations, as does every guy.