Holyfield-Tyson 1

He had four fights (McNeely, Mathias, Bruno and Seldon) after he came back prior to facing Holyfield. What the hell are you talking about?

 

sorry, meant to say that tyson WASNT shot. no if you look at the mathis fight, he was lunging and missing wildy. he eventually batterd mathis but you can ignore how many of those wild swing didnt connect. watch the the holyfield fight, watch how many times tyson lunges and is off balance. you remember the kd that came form that bodyshot? that was a direct result of tyson lunging and getting countered. tyson was still a physical monster when he got out of jail, but as the buster douglas fight showed, once tyson stopped utilizing good techinque, he became a much more beatable fighter

 

1996 version of tyson and the 1996 holyfield were opposite states of each fighter. holyfield was more shot the tyson because he had been through tougher fights and battled illness. but he also becasme a smater boxer who became less prone to getting hit. he used his legs more and became more of craftier fighter. tyson the other had, still had his physical gifts but he had regressed in terms of skill. he was inconsistent defensively, relied on big punches instead of combinations and became more of a headhunter, neglecting to go to the body as often as he ahd around say 87, 88. so it was a tale of two stories.

 

What's wrong with Pacheco's health?

I thought he came across as a complete ***** in the Thrilla in Manilla doco as well.

Saying Joe was stupid,ugly and then childish for taking offense at being called that showed Pacheco to be either unbelievably arrogant or grossly insensitive towards Frazier.

Maybe these health issues you mention are to blame for his tactless display on the Manilla doco because he didn't come across as either intelligent or insightful to me.

 

I agree.
He came across as a complete ****, to be fair.

 

Tyson was definitely not shot when he came out of jail.
He was in great shape, and after he crushed Bruno in 3 rounds most people considered him being close to his best.
And, if you look at the footage honestly he was at least very close to what he'd been in 1991 against Ruddock, perhaps the same, perhaps even slightly better.
Yes, he'd been better in 1988, but even that gets exaggerated. People were pointing out as early as 1986 and 1987 that he showed bad habits and flaws in his longer fights and would often just wade straight in, neglect head movement and look for the one big punch - sometimes. He did lose a bit of intensity and the flaws became a bit more obvious after the Spinks fight and after he lost but they were always there. This has been covered in other threads, and the footage doesn't lie. Anyway ........

I dont think prison took anything out of Tyson. Prison preserves a fighter, and he came back in amazing physical shape. He was only 29, and hadn't been in many ring wars, and the prison lifestyle is a lot healthier than what he'd get up to on the outside.

I believe he was out-of-shape in the first Holyfield fight. He weighed 222, his heaviest yet but not much more than he'd been before (he'd been 221 on more than one occasion) but his physique looked less sharp than it had been in the Bruno - and certainly the McNeeley - fights.
I think he'd been focussed when he came out of jail, but quick wins over Bruno and Seldon made him train less for Holyfield, I believe.
Still, he wasn't "shot".

Actually, Holyfield was closer to being "shot" than Tyson. Holyfield was older and had been in wars, and already could only fight in spurts. He was definitely already clearly past his best. That's the truth, and anything else in revisionism. He fought a hell of a fight though.

An over-the-hill Holyfield beat an undertrained Tyson in 1996. Beat him up quite clearly too.

And in the rematch Tyson was in GREAT shape. But only physically. Mentally, he panicked and got himself DQ'd.

 

I've always thought Tyson actually looks faster and sharper against Holyfield than he did against Douglas.

 

Tyson would certainly have a chance against Bowe, I'd make it a 50-50 fight - should the Bowe of Holyfield I turn up.

Anything afterwards most likely gets busted up. He was fat for Holyfield II, only really won Holyfield III because Evander was ****ed with hepatits, and we all know what happened against Golota.

 

Ah, yes, the old hepatitis excuse.

I love Holyfield, he's my favourite heavyweight of that era, but I'm not gonna excuse his loss to Bowe or take anything away from Riddick with such excuse-repeating.
Holyfield was past his best by 1995, but sick-note excuses are a dime a dozen. Almost every fighter who ever lost had some sort of virus, flu or illness !
I think Bowe's right hands and left hooks must've been hepatitis too.

 

sorry mate. he hadnt had a competitive fight for 5 years. those fights never went past 3

 

thats because that was tyson at his absolute worse, but even back in 1990, tyson technical flaws were exposed.

 

yeah, mcneely, bruno, mathis and seldon are not good oppoents to prepare for a class fighter like holyfield.

 

Tyson's technical flaws? I always thought he was very technically proficient. His flaws, in my opinion, were mental, not physical nor technical.

Even if you watch early fights of Tyson, you can see that he 'wills' himself past his fear sometimes. Maybe it's all in my head, I don't know, I think I can see it. He goes past his fear and the pain because he doesn't want to let the old man Cus' D'amato down.

In his comeback, I felt Tyson was less pressured, and less afraid of losing than he was before, simply because there was no surrogate father to disappoint. He could take huge punishment, but he was much more passive when faced with resistance, no longer willing himself forward, fighting to win.

That said I think Bowe beats him easier than both Holyfield and Lewis. He's big, strong, has heart and is capable on the inside. Stylistically, he's got the drop on him.

 

Different opinions. I say him having the willpower to stand in there while taking a beating and still find the openings is a good indicator of mental toughness. Tyson came out hard in the 9th but didn't have enough left.