Holyfield - what was missing?

well maybe tyson would of had enough devil and variety to outhustle him but to say he was the def win is very naive. holyfield could destroy the biggest of heavies. evander was a better fighter in general.

if you walk in to evander's machine like workrate you dont come out well. tyson cant slip or throw off the combinations while he is trading with evander....also the granite chin and will of evander doesnt mean your dropping him and tkoing him. it's a hard 12 rounds which with tysons pace would of been a massive mistake

 

Clay vs Liston.


(you know i had to)

 

Give him top end power (saqy on a par with Joe Louis) and he is probably the greatest heavyweight of all time.

So therin lies the answer.

 

I absolutely agree with that. Holyfield was not that great at anything, apart from having arguably the best chin ever. But I would have him in the top 10 for sure, and probably at about #8. A few points.

Firstly, a chin can take you very, very far, especially if you're applying pressure. Holyfield did beat, and maybe would beat, a lot of fighters primarily through chin and just not taking "no" for an answer.

Secondly, Heavyweight is not a division historically stacked with skillful fighters. Ali, for instance was not really that great at a lot of things. His hand-speed was good, but not the clear GOAT at the weight IMO. He had average power and sometimes rather sloppy puching. He was all over the place technically. He wasn't that big or that strong. Chin was great, but not unassailable. But then, his natural reflexes and footwork were off the charts, and that allowed him to totally control a fight against anyone who didn't have a Frazier-esque style. One or two extraordinary attributes can get you very far. It's the same with many other fighters. Foreman really only had outstanding power. Holmes got by mostly on a jab and a few other skills which helped him enforce that advantage. Lewis wouldn't have been that great if he weren't big, etc. So Holyfield's lack of a Duran-level skillset or outstanding attributes across the board doesn't damn him as much as one might think, in relative terms at least.

Thirdly, Holyfield's record is just wicked IMO, which makes up for lesser H2H to an extent if you feel that he's lacking there. He has more wins over HW ATGs than anyone other than Ali. He has Tyson, Tyson, Bowe, Holmes, Foreman, Moorer, Douglas on his record. Purely in terms of the quality of the names, that's a list that probably only Ali can top, and it certainly outshines the top 5 or 6 wins of the likes of Liston who are often ranked above him on here.

 

I think the Holyfield of the second Bowe fight could beat Lewis. Evander was unequivocally washed-up when he fought Lewis.

 

Those guys were SOOOOOOOOOOOO great!

But please, don't anyone fancy they didn't work their asses off.:nono

 

Mozart did have a natural gift like no other. There are some things that you just can't teach, especially in music.

 

Great posts and thread. For me, though, I feel Holyfield was better in reality than he was on paper. Even during his first run as HW he always felt he wasn't getting the credit he deserved, and he had many critics harping on him being too small or too this. I feel he was a great HW who is very well-rounded. I don't think paper could ever do justice to his intangibles which were partly what made him so special. That self-belief, will, and focus in dire situations (Although he lacked focus sometimes when he wasn't in danger).

If I'm going to point to something that was lacking I would say it was his punching power. He was small, but small men can hit sometimes. Holyfield during his athletic prime (Up to Bowe I) was a good accurate puncher but definitely lacked top shelf power. I can't imagine how much better things would've turned out for him had he had power. In the Heavyweight division, this seems to be an essential especially for the smaller Heavyweights - key word being smaller Heavyweights. He hit Bowe with everything and the kitchen sink and couildn't put a dent in him. Obviously Bowe has excellent durability and a size advantage... but I feel that was a thing that was a crucial difference in that fight. Holyfield out-fight him early on in the fight, but the wear and tear and damage being done from Bowe was much too much in comparison. Holyfield was jabbing and hitting him with tons of firepower, but Bowe didn't have to out-land Holyfield... he just had to land on him frequently enough.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPdmAI30oOs[/ame]


Of course, the bigger Holyfield that fought Tyson probably punched a little harder. You can take some to give some when comparing the different versions of Holyfield. I wouldn't argue that a younger Holyfield would be better suited than the one that DID in fact take Tyson down.

For me he had a great heart, and a very solid beard. I think his heart far outweighs his chin, and I feel his focus when hurt was good. His powers of recovery isn't the best but is damn good for any HW. His stamina, became an fluctuating thing at times. It was grossly bad according to conditioning coaches near the Douglas fight. It was much improved at times when he was bigger. This pattern can sort of further justify his inconsistencies, specifically the Moorer fight. Holyfield did apparently have some heart problem, and it was probably an underlining problem (Not due to severe roid use. Maybe uncovered through use at worst). Obviously he was a well-rounded fighter. Sometimes he took too many risks, and sometimes he may have dangerously engaged in war. But he showed patience and reserve against powerful fighters (Foreman, Tyson). He could box, and never was a pressure-fighter per se... more of a boxer-puncher that liked to go in the trenches at times. He was solid technically, had some good movement, but as has been pointed out he was at certain points hittable, which made for more exciting fights. And when he attacked, he often fired back hard with many shots. Total outright war could ensue just from this instant change in any of his fights.

A great champion and a great fighter. I think sometimes his ability H2H can be underrated. He sort of just gets whitewashed and it's assumed that any great strong big HW at his best will beat him. Sort of takes away from his defining fights with Tyson, and even some of his earlier performances.

 

Both Holyfield's chin and stamina are being massively overrated. To answer the question, he lacked any kind of finesse to his game, despite being a good technical fighter.