Holyfield - what was missing?

Granite chinned fighters simply don't get hurt nearly as often as he did. Not to mention being stopped by Bowe.

 

I spot an unobjective Holyfield nuthugger.

 

Honestly, I've got him as the best Cruiserweight in history...top 20 HW and top10 p4p. I also rate him very highly h2h in classic matchups. The only definite losses in classic matchups would be against:

'39-'42 Louis
'66-'67 Ali
'77-'80 Holmes
'86-'88 Tyson
'98-'00 Lewis

Close calls:

'68-'71 Frazier
'73-'75 Foreman

Everyone else gets beaten soundly by '90-'92 Holyfield.

 

Mind if I see your pound for pound list?

 

I think Holyfield had slow feet. Other that that it is very difficult to find many flaws in the "Real Deal".

 

Which list? HW or p4p?

 

HW(please remember that this is not a h2h list but a HW atg list based on level of accomplishment, quality of competition and overall dominance in this particular weight class) ...


Louis
Holmes
Ali
Frazier
Foreman
Liston
Johnson
Marciano
W. Klitschko
Dempsey
Patterson
Tunney
Lewis
V. Klitschko
Bowe
Holyfield
Tyson
Schmeling
Walcott
Moore

 

What about Bowe?

 

:good

 

atsch

1) Marciano, Dempsey and Patterson wouldn't be considered HW's by modern standards because there was no Cruiserweight division!!!!

2) These guys were absolutely Heavyweights by the standards of the day and would give most modern heavyweights fits...especially Patterson.

3) Who would you propose to replace them on my list? Tommy Morrison? Buster Douglas? John Ruiz? David Tua? I could possibly see someone making arguments for Norton, Lyle, Chuvalo, Bonavena or Quarry but who would they replace. Norton has the strongest argument but do you really think he should replace any of the guys on this list?

 

Consistency. He couldn't keep a solid resume. That and he has no common grace in giving up the sport.

 

Holyfield wasn't really inconsistent in a bad way. He didn't even lose a fight until he was 30 years, and it's mainly because he had some shock WINS after that that he's seen as inconsistent !
If he had lost to Bowe the second time, and lost to Tyson, no one would call him inconsistent. Winning those fights (and others) past his prime gets him branded inconsitent.

He went 28-0 as a pro, cleaning up the cruiser division in his first 18 fights, then going 10-0 against heavyweights.

Then after he turned 30, he went 8-3 up to the eve of the Lennox Lewis fight, when he was already 36 years old.

He was 36-3, with wins over both the men who had beat him. (1-2 against Bowe only because he had the balls to risk a third match with him).

36-3 at age 36, against that level of opposition is not an inconsistent resume. Nor is 36-5 even, if you give Lewis the two fights against him. Holyfield was competitive in all those losses.

The "inconsistent" label just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
Look at the record, look at the opposition, look at the years and his age. Holyfield was extremely solid.

 

:?Did I not clearly state that I'd like to see your pound for pound list? Isn't that what"p4p" means? Either way, if that Heavyweight list you put out was in order then don't bother.

 

I reckon any version of Ali up to,and including the '75 Thrilla would beat Holyfield. Peak versions of Frazier and Foreman would also win,imo.

 

Nicely put together PowerPuncher, but I have to disagree with you about Evander not being a smart tactical fighter.

Tyson said after the first fight, that Holyfield threw "first class counter-punches." That is just his boxing skills alone. A good tactician also doesn't let Tyson's intimidation and bullying skills take control of the fight, which Tyson tried to do in the first rounds.

Sure, Holyfield didn't always have the best defense, but I would say he was more brave at times, especially slugging it out with a slower but more dangerous Foreman, and of course his matches with Bowe. When he needed to be more defensive minded, he was smart enough to protect himself. Forget about the fights with the Ruiz disease, because Evander should have been well retired by that time. I also don't believe Lennox Lewis beat Evander as clear as some on this forum say in the rematch. I think Evander landed more power shots and had Lewis hurt more than Lewis hurt him, which surprisingly doesn't count as much in the scoring anymore. Lewis was politely awarded the decision because he was wronged the first time with Holyfield.