Holyfield's first 22 opponents v Jeffries' first 22

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Unforgiven, Sep 25, 2015.


  1. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I've no problem with the underlined just the statement that," he cleaned out the division".
     
  2. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    To me, it's almost irrelevant whether Jeffries cleaned out the HW division.
    Let's say Holyfield cleaned out the cruiserweight division then, plus Tillis, Thomas, Dokes and Rodrigues.

    Holyfield's crop were as big, or bigger, and we know that some of them were quality opponents. Qawi, Ocasio, Deleon and Dokes were still very credible at the time.

    Jeffries beat some high quality opponents too, but the likes of Corbett and Jackson and even Fitzsimmons were older fighters coming off long lay-offs.
     
  3. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I disagree with pretty much everything you have written here.

    Regardless of what size Holyfield’s opponents were, you cannot draw equivalence between being the top contender in a cruiserweight division, and being the top contender in an unlimited division. The status of the former might simply be an artefact of the division. If there had been a cruiserweight title in Jeffries day, then a few of his opponents might have held it, because they would not have had to fight Jeffries for it. Regardless of how old/small Fitzsimmons was, he was still the best heavyweight in the world, apart from Jeffries himself.
     
  4. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    My point is that it is easier to count the contenders that Jeffries didn’t fight, while Holyfield at the equivalent number of fights still hadn’t met most of the top heavyweights.

    I think there is a lot of false equivalence being drawn here.
     
  5. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    You don't have to count the contenders he didn't fight, you just have to take note of their colour.
    Jeffries defended against two challengers who were class and in their primes,Ruhlin and Sharkey
    Ruhlin had been half killed by Fitzsimmons,[ why wasnt he in there instead of Gus?] and 5 foot 8 inches 185 lbs Sharkey.

    Fitzsimmons kod both Ruhlin and Sharkey in a:

    TWO WEEK PERIOD AND HE WAS AN OLD MAN WITH BUSTED HANDS!
    Holyfield would beat the living s*it out of
    both those men.

    And Jeffries too!
    If they could spray Evander white for one night!
     
  6. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Yeah, I'm familiar with that argument and probably have made it myself at times.
    But we can still guess as to how the 1980s cruiserweight division measures up to much of the 1890s/1900s unlimited division.
    That's the question of the thread. How one crop matches against another.
    I'd make a guess that 1986-'87 Qawi's on par with an 1899 Sharkey at the least, etc.
     
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  7. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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  8. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I think that this would be a dangerous assumption.

    Qawi is the very definition of a fighter whose standing was an artefact of having a cruiserweight division.

    If there had been a cruiserweight division in Sharkey's day, he might well have held the title.
     
  9. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    It is hard to see anyone outside of Fitzsimmons holding the Cruiserweight title, once Fitzsimmons lost to Jeffries. Fitz may very well have been the greatest cruiserweight of all time, particularly if cruiserweight is considered 190 lbs. His record at this weight stacks up against anyones inclluding Holyfield. Fitz pretty much kod all the major cruiserweight players of the time.
     
  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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  11. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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  12. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    Why not 28 for Holyfield? Anyway, Holyfield was better than Jeffries.

    Thru his first 22 he beat Qawi x2 (Hall of Famer), Ocasio, Deleon (Hall of Famer), Booze, Tillman, Parkey, Tillis, Thomas, Dokes, and Rodrigues among others. He was 22-0 (18KOs) overall, 3-0 (2) vs. Hall of Famers, and 6-0 (5) in CW World title fights... and left no doubt who the man was in the CW division before moving up to HW. At HW he was already ranked as the #1 title contender by most...Mike Tyson was the champ.

    He would go on to beat Stewart, McDonagh, Douglas, Foreman (Hall of Famer), Bert Cooper, and Larry Holmes (Hall of Famer) before suffering his first loss... at the age of 30.

    After 28 fights he was 28-0 (22) overall, 10-0 (7) in World title fights, 5-0 (2) vs. Hall of Famers, and 3-0 (1) vs. Lineal HW Champs (Douglas, Foreman, and Holmes)... he would beat 4 more Lineal HW Champs (Bowe, Moorer, Tyson x2, and Rahman... he also drew with Lewis)... that's more than anyone.
     
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  13. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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  14. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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  15. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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