Honestly Debating Greatness vs. Pure Slander

I agree fully some cannot see past the old time fighters.it works both ways.
However the generalised argument that modern fighters are bigger,stronger and fitter is just that,a generalisation.

 

correct and JPL you are precisely right.

it's no different than a high school popularity type thing.
too many people trying to get the approval or acceptance of the 'In Crowd' and some of the In Crowd are like Big Mouth football jocks who bark a lot of "awhhhs" to silence the others, get support from those who want to be in and the whole time ignoring Reports, Facts or just simple questions & dialogue.

I've been coming on these boards for 13 years, have LEARNT so much, respect everyone and know who the Big mouths are and likewise know who the Humble Researcher/Historians are...

I'm here to discuss boxing ALL and ANY fighters of interest and especially the TOP Men who we don't know much about or never here of. Boxing has a massive vault of Rich History and I learned a long time ago, that there are many, many greats, equal to or better than many champions. This is a fact of life never mind boxing or other sports.

This is why I'm here, and many others too, it's just a shame some narrow minded loud mouths don't have the same appreciation, learning capacity or dignity.

Well spoke, JPL, Burt and others!

 

Tommy Burns ..

Another gap in your sermons ... and this is why every champ who drew the color line has an asterisk next to their name.

 

You could Burt but you'd be wrong. I am a white male, a fiscal conservative to boot who voted for Romney FYI ... I just state the facts ... you guys are worshiping an icon straight out of the great John Ford film "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=363ZAmQEA84

Pure fantasy and no one knew more than Dempsey what a lucky guy he was in how his life played out .. all you guys keep coming back with is excuses ( not his fault he ducked the draft, he was a visicious fighter/that's why he cold ****ed Miske and pummeled Wiullard and Firpo as he did, not his fault for ducking Wills, everyone wrote how great he was ) but you don;t point to the film tat backs you up ...

How's this for an example ?

Ali v.s Liston 1, Terrell, Williams
Louis v.s. Schmeling 2, Max Baer,
Marciano v.s. LaStarza, Moore
Liston v.s. Williams, Patterson
Frazier v.s. Ali 1, Foster, Ellis
Charles v.s. Walcott, Louis
Lewis v.s. Golata, Ruddock, Grant, Rachman 2
Holyfield v.s. Douglas and Tyson
Tyson v.s. Berbick, Briggs, Spinks
These are EXAMPLES ..

Where are yours ?

 

Ok, I see what your saying now. Good post ,well explained.

 

Its funny to me how some talk up a guys opponents when that fighter really just beat a bunch of bums... Jerry Quarry, Roberto Duran, Jack Dempsey, and Sonny Liston are probably the most overrated fighters on this forum and IMO Marciano would have KTFO of Dempsey. He went 6-0 (5) vs. Hall of Famers, and was very durable... dont discount that.

 

Again as always you make statements without understanding the entire picture. Burns was a Canadian and was not saddled with the cultural racial bias of Americans. It's well documented that he was told in strong terms by Corbett and others to draw the color line and he eventually did not heed their warnings.

 

Think what one will of him as a fighter, but I think you have to give Burns credit for going against the norm set by Sullivan and defended against a black fighter, I dont think Burns gets much credit for doing that. I think he was a good fighter over all, short of great, but he was one of the top men in his hay day, and boy could he hit.

Yeah Johnson beat him, and easy at that, but Burns went out and acted like how a true champion should of acted, face the best man, and that was Jack Johnson.

 

So where are we going with this? Are we bitching because these little whipper snappers dont respect the dinosaurs? Im not one that says everything is bigger, stronger, and faster now... but Im not blind either.

When two guys are equally skilled, the bigger guy is usually gonna win... thats just the way it is. Guys like Tommy Burns, Bob Fitzsimmons, Stanley Ketchel, Harry Greb, and others... sure, they'd do good against men their own size... even from a more modern era, but vs. true modern HWs with talent they'd get crushed more times than not.

Even Jerry Halstead would probably beat all of them to be honest.

 

they would only get crushed by the absolute TOP Super Heavyweights because of the sheer size disadvantages, but those big offs that can't fight, don't fight and run out of steam by the mid runs would equally get crushed by the TOP HWs of other era's.

Most of todays S-HWs are NOT that talented is more the point!!!

 

I feel that some consider moldy yarns about carrying full grown steer 8 miles through snow drifts to be research.

Size is a factor, ergo the weight divisions in the sport. People here are so defensive of the old guard heavies that they don't take the time to consider the difference between a factor and an absolute. This defensiveness speaks volumes.

This one is a knee-slapper. Thank you. I haven't had a good laugh for some time. You have clearly done your research.

I can tell quite a bit from the Johnson films, and quite a bit of it is good. I can also tell how he manhandles smaller opponents and takes a generally safety-first, well-considered approach. The real distortion of early films is that we only have the fights that are filmed, a small sample of a larger career, upon which to make broader conclusions on a larger career.

 

1 Dempsey flattening a Jess Willard who though not a great fighter was NEVER dropped before, and took everything that Jack Johnson hit him with for 25 rounds without hurting big Jess-
2 Battling Levinsky- who Dempsey flattened for the first time in Levinsky's career-
3 Fred Fulton- who was a big man who Dempsey obliterated in 1 minute-
4 Billy Miske who was on a winning streak who Dempsey kod 3 rounds.
5 Bill Brennan whom Dempsey kod in 12 rounds
6 Gunboat Smith- who Dempsey kod 1 round
7 Big Carl Morris whom Dempsey flattened in 1 round
8 Luis Angel Firpo a powerful but crude puncher whom Dempsey kod
in the 2nd round with two of the fastest punches ever landed.
Now of course you will say "show me this on film " . I will respond either a certain chap Jack Dempsey flattened these guys not seen on film, or they all fell from a heart attack...You he, don't believe the eyewitness accounts
of hardened boxing writers who were at ringside when Dempsey kod these men and raved about him, because due to no fault of Jack Dempsey
these fights were not filmed...Fine . You believe what you want to believe,
while I have faith in the accounts of boxing writers who were at ringside...
One of us is CORRECT...Somehow I think it is me...cheers...
P.S. You sure fooled me with Romney...We agree on that issue at least....

 

I agree, size isn't everything.

I'm talking about big guys with talent. Now, my point is this... these big talented guys don't have to be quite as talented as the much smaller man they are fighting. That's when size, strength, power, and durability make the difference.

Maybe Harry Greb was more talented than Sam Peter but guess what???