Hopkins Jones Jr II is on

This fight should have taken place 10 years ago. It means little now. Roy Jones punch resistance is all but gone. A well placed featherweight jolt could knock him out.

 

I'll let you have the last post SS and leave it at that if it's ok. I don't think i can say anymore if i try and by the time you post we will have both made an absolute multitude of points.

Thanks for getting my interest mate, always a pleasure :good

 

No probs mate and nice chatting. I think at the end of the day we'll agree to disagree somewhat and that will be that. I'll give a reply a shot though and add what I can.

 

Cheers mate, that's fine. If we all thought the same and liked/disliked the same fighters what point would there be.

 

Shall we call SS and i old school? I'd love that

Or is this where one of us tells the other we can tell he's never boxed :roll:

 

Nor done weights

 

He throroughly went through the middleweights with a fine-tooth comb, but I think there were some better guys that he could have fought that he didn't because it required him moving up in weight sooner and he decided not to. Once he did move up in weight he probably could have fought a few guys there that he didn't as well, but for me I think the biggest crime is that he wasted the best years of his career beating guys that were below others that were available at the higher weights.

:good

Probably so. I wasn't reading the scribes much at the time and was only going off my impressions of Tarver, but I never for a second thought Roy wouldn't have dealt with him handily had he been around in his prime.

With the exception of Tito, I think the likes of Leonard, Duran, Antuofermo, Hamsho, Minter, Sibson, Roldan and maybe a few others were all above the level of the middleweights Hopkins fought. We'll probably have to agree to disagree on that one.

To maybe make it more simplistic than it was, Hopkins was basically offering Roy a 50/50 split after he beat Trinidad. As time goes by that looks less and less absurd, but in the context of the time the offer was made, Roy had been arguably p4p the best fighter in the sport for a good 8 years and with his reputation at the time, such a suggestion was ridiculous. Especially given that Roy had already beaten him.

:good

It is speculation, but I think he looked somewhat slower at the higher weights, and I don't think his power was the same there either. I'm guessing it was the weight that was the reason but sure it could have been something else.

It's not that much of a jump, that's true, but I think Calzaghe looked a bit less sharp at 175 than he did at supermiddle. Of course things like getting up there in years and the fact that Hopkins is someone hard to look good against would have contributed to that.

:good

I don't think he was so much frightened as he didn't want to risk his legacy in a fight where he probably felt that there was a good chance he'd lose. I don't think Hopkins is scared of anyone.

I guess I tend to look more favourably on what Hagler did at middle compared to what Hopkins did at middle and that gives me the different perspective on them. No doubt Hagler knew his limitations though and thus his quiet response.

I assume they would, though it's an assumption. And through we can still be critical to some extent, my thought is at least they fought a good level of fighters at middle. If Hagler was fighting a Robert Allen three times during his reign, or fighting a DLH just after he got the snot beat out of him and was hyping the fight for a massive pay day, I'd probably think differently.

I think he'd beat them too, but I also think they would have given him more to think about than some of the guys he actually did beat. Again, we'll just have to go our separate ways on that one.

It was indeed masterful.

Given Roy was shot to all hell and Calzaghe was simply cashing in, I don't think he wanted to bother training to get down to his optimum weight. Probably explains why Cal looked quite shite in that fight too and could only posture and mock Roy throughout without doing much serious punching. I don't think he pushed himself o the limit in training for that one.

There shouldn't have been an obligation for him to come down to 160 to fight Winky and Pavlik, but he probably shouldn't have even been fighting those guys end of story given the weight he was campaigning at.

I do think he could have fought Calzaghe at a similar catch weight to Pavlik though, or even at 168 if he wanted to, but that would have made it easier for Calzaghe and Hopkins didn't want that.

Fair enough and you're entitled to it :good

Money, personal revenge for the grudge between them, making the more naive aspect of the public think that it somehow goes to show that hopkins woudl have always beaten Roy in a prime vs. prime match - I think all of that is there.

They are all quality fighters, with Wright and Calzaghe being even a little moreso than that.

 

despite Jones KO loss , this could still be an interesting fight. I will not pay for it but would be interested if it was part of an undercard and part of a PPV. Jones still has experience that could negate B-Hops. Not sure if Jones punch resistance is the Key or the opponents know know he can be hurt. Either way both men deserve a payday

 

Not much to debate or respond to there anyway SS. Good post and quite fair. We are not so much disagreeing on Hopkins opposition vs Haglers so much as splitting hairs just how good Haglers was. I agree his lot are a bit better for sure, i just don't think they are awe inspiring by any stretch is all. I also agree wholeheartedly Haglers mob would give him a bit more to think about as a whole.

Just one thing, Hopkins and Allen obviously had to fight the second time but i believe Allen may have become a mandatory for Hopkins and he had to fight him to keep his IBF title that third time?

 

I couldn't say for sure off the top of my head mate but I'd assume you're right. There wouldn't have been any other reason to fight Allen again that I can think off. Of course, I think Bernard should have migrated north a couple of years earlier, but he did want to get the middleweight record for title defences and so he was likely forced to face him again.

 

Thats my recollection, before the DLH fight wasnt it?

 

I hear what you are saying, but we can sift through anyone's record and pick out names from neighbouring weight classes in the same era, and criticize them for not fighting miscellaneous others. Idiots in the General criticize Pacquiao for not fighting Nate Campbell and Joan Guzman on his way up to welterweight despite him facing many better fighters, it's just not possible that anyone can fight every name in every surrounding weight class in their era. It always appeared to me that Hopkins, like Hagler and Monzon, wanted to reign as a dominant champion and join the historical pantheon of great middleweights. He did so, but then rather than retire he went on to fight a succession of proven quality fighters (Tarver, Calzaghe, Wright, Pavlik) where he was the underdog more often than not.

I would dispute mention of Montell Griffin here for sure. When he was tangling with big name p4p ranked Jones and Toney, it was the mid-late 90s at lhw. Hopkins was not a big name nor p4p ranked, having only won the IBF belt in '95 and was yet to unify. Giving up on the dream of unifying to jump 2 weight divisions and fight a guy who was not exactly a stellar draw just doesn't seem feasible to me.

Michelczewski didn't even have the gravitas to tempt Jones into a fight, and Jones was in his division. Again, I don't see what the motivation would be for Hopkins to jump 2 weight classes and fight a little-known European.

I agree with you that he should have done more to secure a fight with Roy Jones, yes Bernard is every bit as culpable as Jones for not making that rematch happen in the early 2000s, but I disagree about Calzaghe. Because Calzaghe eventually fought some decent comp from 06-08 and broke into the p4p top 10, people now speak of him like he had a long and glittering high-profile Hopkins/Jones style career, but this was never the case. Calzaghe held the least prestigious belt at a graveyard weight from 97-06, and was content to beat a succession of the worst men to ever compete at world level in his hometown. If we are going to criticize Hopkins for not fighting him in the early 00s, we may as well criticize him for not fighting Sven Ottke, Markus Beyer, Eric Lucas etc, because WBO stay-at-homer Joe Calzaghe was no more deserving or enticing than those guys at the time. He eventually earned some credibility and status by unifying in 2006, and Hopkins fought him in 2008.

Calzaghe?

OK, I give you Winky on this one, but that's all. As I said, Pavlik had fought Taylor at 166, and beaten him. Hopkins was fighting at 175, and came down to meet Pavlik at 170, which Pavlik seemed more than happy to do, speaking about stopping Hopkins beforehand.

Hopkins had already secured a legacy as a long-reigning, dominant, unified middleweight champion. He tried to build on that by fighting some of the best names in the neighbouring classes, as his own division and the division above had admittedly been graveyards during his reign. To be over 40 and then fight Tarver, Calzaghe and Pavlik is actually pretty commendable in this age of duckers. I genuinely struggle to see the reasoning for criticizing Hopkins amigo. Other than fighting Winky at a silly weight, there isn't anything to go on here as far as I can see.

Absolutely. Scathing.

He made a man in his mid-30s who had looked to me in his 2 fights there to be small at lightweight (esp the Diaz encounter) jump 2 weight divisions for the fight, then purposefully weighed in over the agreed limit to give himself even more of an advantage than he had naturally. There wasn't even a slither of doubt in any serious fan's mind how that fight would go.

Yes, which is why this is the only thing (other than the current hideous situation with rjj) I can be critical of Hopkins for. In Hopkins's defence, his crime is not as great as Floyd's though. Marquez was a natural feather 2 classes above his natural when he was asked to jump another 2. Winky was a natural lmw fighting 1 class above his natural when he was asked to make the jump, plus Winky had looked superb at mw beating Trinidad and (imo) beating world number 1 at the time Taylor, whereas Marquez had to go life and death with both a past-prime Casa and Juan Diaz. Also, Hopkins-Wright was far more competitive. Winky was a live opponent, JMM was too far from his natural weight class to be anything other than a chubby sacrificial lamb.

No.

This is one of the only things I am not critical of Mayweather for. He was reigning ww champion, and Hatton chose to move up and beat Collazo in his division to force a fight with Floyd. Hatton came after Floyd, and Floyd accommodated him. Can't believe I'm saying this, but I have no criticism whatsoever of Floyd for defending his titles at 147 vs Hatton.

Yes. Hopkins was the lhw champion, and Calzaghe moved up to fight him for the lhw title. I really don't understand what there is to be critical of there either.

Pavlik you could argue either way, but personally I don't see why Hopkins would drag his 40 year old ass to the gym to get down to 160 where he lost to Taylor, when Pavlik himself (coming off a win over a good opponent at 166) seemed happy and confident to meet Hopkins at a catchweight below the weight Hopkins was fighting at at that time.

Every land mammal with a brain and a spine should be!

One of the many reasons: He has been at welterweight for years, and unbelievably still hasn't fought any top welters. Pac has fought one and signed to fight another in his first two fights there.

Not to anywhere near the same extent, not to an extent that he could be held aloft above guys like Roy Jones and Joe Calzaghe and called the second worst offender of the age. Going back to my first point, of course names can be plucked from 160 to 200 that he hasn't fought, but when he moved to lhw, he fought the top man at the time, Tarver. Then he fought the best 168er available, Calzaghe. Then he fought the best 160er available, Pavlik. Yes, he skipped 168 to fight Tarver in the USA, but he fought the best fighter from that division not long after (sorry, but again I steadfastly refuse to even contemplate that defending the lhw title against career smw Joe Calzaghe was anything like a '***** move' on account of weight, just no way mate). He isn't fighting Dawson now because he is 45, and Dawson has the exact same attributes as the last two men to 'beat' him (Chad shares fast hands and a high workrate with Joe C and JT), but surely at 45 you aren't expected to fight every young gun around? If Hopkins was aged 30-35, active in the lhw division and was showing no enthusiasm to fight Dawson, then I would cry ducker. But Hopkins beat the 'Dawson' of his weight class and his era (Tito), it's not a damning indictment of him that he isn't still chasing these little cash-big risk guys as he nears the big 5-0.

You are without question one of the best posters on the site, but on this occasion we are poles apart unfortunately mate.