Hopkins vs. Kessler

Whats your obsession with athleticism and "skills"? Who gives a ****? Theres journeyman who are probably more "skilled" (textbook) than a prime Roy Jones, but that sure as **** doesn't change the disparity in effectiveness and ability.

 

Hopkins UD

 

whoever votet Kessler by KO you can't be more wrong

 

What exactly does Kessler have that one would call an ADVANTAGE over Hopkins? Age?

His defense isnt better...his offense isnt nearly as varied...his movement isnt anywhere near Bernard's...his timing and accuracy arent better...his ability to make the opponent fight his fight aint better...he is not the smarter fighter...

I could go on and on. A fighter like Kessler is made for Hopkins...

I could get really in depth as to why and how...but really...why? Hopkins wins a very comfortable UD...something like 10-2 or 9-3!

 

How about speed and power combined with straight punching, and crisp combinations? How about stamina? Movement? Kessler actually moves around and has very good footwork, while Nard likes to minimize his movement as much as possible and only backs up when he has to. I think Kessler would keep him on his bike.

I think its ridiculous how many people have jumped back on the BHop bandwagon since the Pavlik fight. I was one of the few on here that had no doubt that Hop would school Pavlik, and I took a lot **** from a lot of you guys for saying so. This fight is totally different but for the same reasons why Hopkins beat Pavlik. SPEED. People seem to overlook that Hopkins was faster than Pavlik, just like people are overlooking now that Kessler is faster than Hopkins. Speed Kills and Kessler will do to Hopkins what everyone said Pavlik would would do to Hopkins.

 

You lost me when you said Bernard minimizes his movement. From a sheer footwork, balance and use of angles sense, there is NOONE better than Bernard...definately not Kessler, who's footwork is solid, but basic at times.

As for Kessler's offense that you eluded to. There is a problem with that logic. Kessler's entire offense comes behind or off his wonderful jab. Thing is, and since you know so much about Hopkins...you should know, he is an absolute master at taking away his opponent's best weapon. Calzaghe has shown that taking this away from Mikkel is possible...Hopkins is better at doing it.

Stamina I can give you, as Kessler is always in fantastic shape...but quick question about Bernard, before he went to Shilstone for help training, you ever see him gas before? Never happened...he was ALWAYS the fresher man at the end. Then he drops him and goes back to his old training regimine...and look what happens...fresher man. Dont judge Hopkins stamina by Calzaghe and Wright...look at the body of the man's work...look at his latest fight (where he threw more punches and used more movement than he had in any of the fights with Shilstone as his trainer).

Ill give ya stamina tho...like I said, Kessler is wonderfully conditioned. But is that enough to beat a fighter like Bernard?

And since you know so much more about Bernard than me (I hope you can sense the sarcasm here...bandwagon? ME? LOL!! I love new posters...HAHAH)...and how I am just "jumping back on his bandwagon"...you would know that it wasnt SPEED that beat Pavlik.

Hopkins moved exclusively into Pavlik's right hand, making it impossible for him to sit down on it and throw it effectively (the same thing he did to Trinidad's left). He also gave him so many different angles, it made it impossible for Kelly to set and throw his jab...something that when he is unable to do, he DOES NOT THROW!

And most importantly, he used something that is much more effective than speed....timing. Everytime he saw an opening he attacked it. He varied his offense to create more openings, then attacked them as they opened.

Yes, Hopkins has fast hands...as far as handspeed, this is not a give in to Kessler as well...but what he does better is, he times his opponent, which makes his hands look that much faster. Kessler's speed is not only not an advantage vs Bernard....its a HUGE disadvantage because of Bernard's ability to time fighters who exclusively work behind the jab.

I believe you misunderstood the question...I didnt ask what does Kessler do well. I know what Kessler does well. What I asked was, what does Kessler have that would be an ADVANTAGE over Hopkins.

And as for the "bandwagon" comment...I know I dont really post on here that much anymore...but trust me when I say...and all of the long time posters here will back this up. There isnt many people out there that know more about Hopkins and his opponents/possible opponents than me bro (as well as the fact that I KNOW MY **** when talking boxing...Im more a student of the game than just a fan).

AND....I predicted Hopkins would win easily over Pavlik (on this very site BTW...go check my post history) a looooong time back when this fight was still in the rumor stages...and I even predicted how as well. So please try that **** on one of these other posters...

 

A good post. :good

Hopkins certainly could win. I just lean towards Kessler because he has so much more to him that what you described. There is no way Hopkins gives Kessler as many angles as Calzaghe, and Kessler only began to loose more rounds than Joe after he tired around 6-7 round. Both Kessler and Calzaghe have said that. Calzaghe felt he was behind by round 6 and that is wasn't until round 8 when he felt that Kessler was getting tired that he thought he would win. Now, Hopkins is NOT going to make Kessler tire. And Kessler is fast enough, has enough timing (which is actually excellent and not noted by all - yet) and precision to make Hopkins counters very difficult and dangerous for Bernard.

It will be a good fight and I hope it happens.

 

:good

I dont think for a second Hopkins would tire Kessler...but I do think he would confuse him to all hell...and yes, I do feel that he would give him more angles than Joe. Listen, I love Calzaghe...one of my all time favs (the older posters will attest...I was one of the few who said he would embarrass Lacy...made me a good chunk of change on that one, so lets just say Joe will always have a place in my heart! LOL!)...and tho I feel he is great at using angles to set up his own offense, he in no way has better defensive movement than Bernard (use of angles included).

Calzaghe was able to take Kessler's jab away from him by using those angles and taking the fight in close when he needed (as Kessler is fairly limited inside). Hopkins, as noted, is not only better at using/showing those angles, but also a better inside fighter than Joe. For Kessler to win, he would need to do so off of that jab. Only problem is, Hopkins can and will take that away from him. This should be a give in for anyone who has seen both men fight...especially those who have seen Bernard fight...which you obviously have.

Now as for Kessler...its tough sometimes siding against a fighter in a post, because you do need to look at what he wont be able to do because of what ever either strengths or weaknesses he may have (I believe its more strengths of Bernard and stylistic matchups), because then it looks as if you are selling one fighter short, or giving another too much credit. But I will tell you, I think Kessler is a wonderful fighter...I just believe, from what I have seen in his fights...from the strengths and shortcomings he has, as well as seeing Bernard's fights, as well as his strengths and shortcomings...that its just a terrible matchup for Mikkel. This has no bearing on how I feel about him as a fighter. I do believe he is limited in ways...but great in ways as well.

 

Fair enough. I think we will have to agree to disagree. I accept your reasoning, I just disagree with the percentages you put on the importance on each fighters ability to play his own game in these various facets.

I agree though that the fight favors Hopkins stylistically. However, being such a boxing manual boxer many boxers will have a stylistic advantage against Kessler on paper. Kessler just has some key qualities that I think will win him the fight and I think some are underrating him in the areas where he is less strong (but still good imo.).

Let's get it on so we can know rather than guess. :bbb:good It hinges on Bernard - Kessler is ready. He will even go to the US if need be. Bernard?

 

I believe Bernard wants the Calzaghe rematch. That is what he is banking on getting...tho Im not sure Joe wants it. Too high risk and with him winning the first one, too low reward (and yes, I had Calzaghe winning their fight 8-4 minus the KD). Tho I would love to see it happen (tho thats another post for another day LOL).

If not I think a fight with Dawson could happen...

I think Hopkins looks at those as bigger monetary fights (rightfully so), where as a fight with Kessler will draw interest, but not nearly the same from a marketing standpoint. And, much like Calzaghe, at this stage of their careers...the fights need to make sense, just as much as they need to make cents (millions of em).

If these two fights fall through, look for Hopkins to take Mikkel up on his offer. Remember, not long after the Pavlik fight, Kessler and Hopkins met and Hopkins DID say he is a great fighter who he would love to face. But again, if he makes it happen...at this stage (or better yet age) of his career, he can kiss a Calzaghe rematch goodbye.

I know Joe has said he doesnt give rematches (Veit? But not Bernard? Still confuses me...)...but if the money gets to be enough, ya never know.

 

Well, your obviously looking to pick any criteria possible to discredit Kessler, if thats your aim so be it. But why discuss a specific part of a fighters ability as though its whole, which is exactly what your doing.

Plenty of (great) fighters are heavily reliant on athleticism, does that mean they are any less effective in the ring? No, of course not, so why speak as though they are?

 

You make a lot of good points. With the movement comment, I wasn't saying that Nard has bad footwork or doesn't give great angles or slip punches like a the master he is, I was just trying to say that he usually doesn't waste any movement unnecessarily, I think mostly because he's tries to pace himself. I'm also of the opinion from what I've seen that he prefers to fight in the middle of ring as opposed to constantly circling on the ropes. In the Calzaghe fight, Bernard's movement was fast and crisp, for the first 4 rds, and a little excessive for Nard IMO. And even though he won most if not all of those rds, Nard paid for it in the rest of the fight and once he slowed down was easier to hit. In the Pavlik fight he was much more paced and relaxed and obviously wasn't pushed or really forced to be on the defensive since he able take control the action from rd 1 at his comfortable pace. I am assuming that pushing the pace against the older fighter is something that Mikkel would do and with his speed and stamina, I can see him landing his jabs with consistency by midpoint of the fight and setting up his bigger shots. No disrespect to Bernard, but I just think father time catches up to him in this one. And from IMO, Bernard only looks fresh against guys that don't push the pace on him, which just happens to be everyone except Calzaghe. I don't think Shilstone has anything to do with it. Was he not with him for the Tarver fight? And Nard will time him but I don't see him throwing enough significant punches to slow Kessler or the pace down. I think Mikkel possibly has a better beard than Calzaghe. Youth, speed, stamina, heart, and drive. Rd 12 against Calzaghe.

Sorry if I offended you with the bandwagon comment. I just see so many guys on here jump sides with whichever way the wind blows and who's ever getting hyped the most at the moment. As you know, just a few months ago everyone was writing his epitaph and now those same guys are saying he's indestructible.

 

I tried to reason with you, but you didn't respond with a counterargument. You just retorted to something along the lines of the above.
You go on a boxing forum to discuss boxing and engage in a dialogue with the other users not to shout out **** comments like "Kessler is all Hype!!" or "Floyd is a ***** running ******!!". Word of advise... That stuff makes you sound stupid.

I'm the one backing my opinion you're the one backpedallng fella.