Hopkins was an old master, but what about when he faked injuries in fights?

I reckon he stunted the development of a few middleweight careers too. He dished some beatings out that's for sure.

 

I can't tell you how many times I have seen fighters get hit on the belt line and then look at the ref for help claiming it was low to get a break or to cost an opponent a point. Every sport has examples of competitors looking for an edge or claiming a foul. BHOP is no different and I certainly don't think it takes away from his legacy. You don't think Greb, Ketchel, Walker etc. Always followed the rules do you?

Did Liston purposely have his corner rub that crap on his shoulder to blind Ali? Could Montel Griffin have gotten up from that late punch from Jones? Was Holyfield on the juice?

 

Not only a racist idiot but a cheat with a horrible ugly fighting style but at the same time talented, dedicated in training and with an impressive resume.

The guy is boxing's equivalent to marmite.

 

Foreman's quote doesn't really hold up though--it's not an accurate description of jazz or boxing. I get the rather banal point he was trying to convey though.

 

Yeah, those incidents really changed my opinion of Hopkins (I didn't see the Robert Allen "dive" until years later). For all the regurgitated cliches we always hear about Tyson being a bully with a bit of dog in him, it's interesting that nobody ever has much to say about the Executioner. Phenomenal story and ATG career but these moments were pretty disgraceful.

 

I think it holds for both jazz and boxing. Perhaps you're thinking this implies the converse claim that the less appreciated it is, the better it is.

Some of the very best jazz is highly accessible even to people who aren't very musically sophisticated::

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Some is not:

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And, with notable exceptions and caveats notwithstanding, I'd say there's a definite downward trend in wide accessibility as you get to greater and greater works, as with all forms of art:

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In boxing, Mayweather-Paquio is a sterling example of this maxim; an unimpeachably masterful performance that was appreciated by almost none of the casual fans.

 

You're overthinking this one. The statement "the better it is, the less it is appreciated" simply isn't true (especially when it comes to jazz).

The fact that technical mastery isn't perfectly correlated with popularity and some displays of technical mastery are less accessible or fan-friendly than others for stylistic reasons doesn't change that.

PS - And who's to say that Coltrane's less accessible material is "better jazz" than his more accessible work? Who's to say that Cecil Taylor's jazz is better than that of any of the many, many more widely appreciated pianists out there? In fact, there's a legitimate argument to be made that the purposefully dissonant free jazz has lost the plot altogether and is indeed worse jazz than bebop, hard bop, post-bop, or swing, etc.

 

Why do you say that?

 

Never saw him come into a fight out of shape- he was very disciplined .
But he was very dirty too and he would cry if someone else did it back to him.
Hell Jones was shot to hell in the rematch and Hopkins still was pulling dirty tricks.

When i think of say a great like Hagler i cant see him beating Hagler. I can see him making it difficult but not winning.

i think he also fought in a weak era which wasnt his fault.

 

Destroyed his own legacy

 

Too much is made of his supposedly racist comment. He did and said a lot of things to get inside fighters heads. Whether it was telling Calzaghe he would never lose to a white boy, or throwing the Puerto Rican flag on the ground in front if Tito, or all of the taunting he did against younger fighters like Pavlik, Pascal or Tarver. I don't know if he meant any of that stuff but I do know he used it to fire himself up and get into guy's heads. Aside from always being prepared physically he was also mentally tough as hell unlike a lot of folks in this world that can't handle being called a name. I would not count Hopkins out against anyone from 160 to 175 throughout the history of boxing. The guy won in and out if the ring.

 

How so? He fought everyone in his weight classes for almost 30 years.

 

Faking injuries - that **** wouldn't wash with the greats of the 20s through 80s unless the mob threatened to shoot them. Despicable. Take your beating like a man and/or find a way to win, that's great.

 

How do you know he was "faking"? He fits right in with the all time greats. Look at his record for christ sake. You really telling Hopkins to "take his beating like a man"? You going ro give him that bearing though guy? When did anyone ever beat him down? Sorry his words hurt your feelings.

 

I could be wrong, but I feel like Hopkins hates who ever he fights regardless of race much in the same way Duran did. Both of those guys were down right nasty towards there opponents but who is to say what was real and what was manufactured. All I know for sure he was a phenomenal cerebal fighter and really cool to me when I met him. I hope my words are not misunderstood on this thread. I don't condone racism but I do understand the mentality of a guy like Hopkins that had zero marketability when he turned pro. The guy grinded out his place in boxing history via fighter all of the top guys of his era.