How about Liston/Tyson???

So Liston literally saying "I quit" isn't quitting compared to Tyson who lost his temper and was disqualified?

I can't think of a more shameful way to lose than to simply quit on your stool against a lighthitter after trying to cheat and failing.
Tyson fought hard in the first match, was headbutted frequently, and in the rematch retaliated by biting Holyfield. It's not comparable to quitting on your stool.

 

What Tyson was doing reminded of what high school kids, who didn't really want to fight, would often do: They'd posture ....and when teachers or friends arrived to break it up and physically block them, they'd suddenly get aggressive. "Hold me back! Hold me back!"

There's no debate because Tyson masked his quit job with something worse. That "something worse" allowed some to see it the way he hoped they would, as "street". As a youth, Tyson used to punch old ladies in the face and rob them. He had one of the most fragile pysches of any heavyweight champion who ever lived. Anyone who doesn't accept that Tyson was riddled -absolutely riddled- with insecurity and self-doubt, doesn't know Tyson.

I'd rather see a man concede defeat by staying seated on the canvas like Arguello in Pryor II, or not answer the bell like Tzsyu and hundreds of others, or even walk away mid-round like Duran. Wouldn't you?

No one can rationalize what Tyson did, and it remains an incomparable act of cowardice.

 

What's this? Poor Tyson lost his temper? Poor Tyson was just giving as good as he got?

Ali quit on his stool. Should he have kicked Holmes instead? Arguello surrended while seated on his pants against Pryor in the rematch. Should he have asked his corner for some cocaine to snort, since Pryor probably did in fact accept some kind of stimulant from Panama Lewis in the first bout?

As to the headbutt accusations... review the films. A boxer is trained to come into shots. If a man is coming at you aggressively, you do not move back, you get into a small package and try to catch him coming in. Physics thus helps you obtain a KO. Holyfield was doing that. Tyson is the one running in like a Rhino. Holyfield was doing what he should have been doing. Tyson's head collided with Evander's. As Evander got older, he was freer with that dome but I saw no evidence that Tyson's getting headbutted was not do to either his own stupidity or the cost of Holyfield's proper execution.

Finally, I'd like to hear how you have conclusively determined that Liston was behind the linament in Clay's eyes. The fact is, there are competing theories -including one with a now-deceased Liston cut man, and one with Dundee admitting his fault.

PS/ Ali was not a "light hitter".

 

Liston quit on his stool in 6 rounds and wasn't exactly getting pummelled ring post to ring post like Ali was against Holmes, and like other greats who quit on their stool.

Liston quit on his stool after 6 rounds in a fight where he wasn't seriously hurt, and still had power to take out anyone. Tyson already gave his all in the first fight with Holyfield, in the rematch he got butted (disputing Holyfield headbutts frequently is laughable) and retaliated, resulting in a DQ. Liston wasn't getting beat up that bad, and had to throw in the towel ala Frazier in Manila. Fighters a lot worse than Liston were able to suck it up and go the distance or at least late into their fight with Ali, Listons quitting on his stool is a lot less justified than the other examples you cited.

 

Liston quit. He was being defeated but not badly beaten.

I don't think Tyson quit in the rematch with Evander. We know know how disturbed Mike is and that he was on and off mood regulating medicines that had a huge effect on him. Going on and off the medicine to fight had to seriously effect an already messed up mind. In this way Tyson was and allowed himself to be exploited. I simply think he freaked out ...

If Tyson gets credit from me it is for not quitting. He took a terrible pounding from Douglas and did not quit. He took a nasty pounding from Holyfield in the first bout and did not quit. He received a hell of a beating from Lewis but again never quit.

 

Liston quit and it was lamentable. He shouldn't have. He trained for about 2 days and was not prepared for the speed and the combinations of Clay. Excuse? No, too bad. He should have taken his beating like a champion, trained harder next time in hope for a rematch.

Some champions and solid fighters quit for reasons which ultimately only they know. I don't condone it, but I'd be careful judging one of them more harshly than others and measuring the width and length of bumps and bruises to justify your judgeship... especially if you yourself haven't been in there with a professional.

Additionally, I'd question whether or not you really are a fan of Liston. His record is not that of a coward and your excusing Tyson's disgraceful act with his previous performance strongly suggests that you are not familiar with Liston aside from the 2 fights with Ali.

 

... but for Liston it's far simpler. He just quit. Never mind the rest of the record. The broken jaw against Marshall, the wars with prime Cleveland Williams, the end of the sixties when he aged, but still vainly campaigning for a title shot.

I smell a double standard.

 

Liston was a very tough fighter, i'm not saying that he was a coward. If he wasn't tough, he wouldn't of survived the beatings Williams gave him, I'm just saying that Liston quitting on his stool against Ali is worse and a much more blatent and obvious quit job than Tyson biting Holyfield.

 

There's no question about it. To this day I find it puzzling that he simply quit against Ali .... he was basically being outboxed, his eye was puffed up and he had a cut, not huge items in the historical perspective of the ring and then he throws in the towel ... I can only guess that he was over confident, under trained, getting beat and quit. The rematch is even worse. Is there anyone who actually thinks that fight was legit?

You take the Ali fights out of the equaltio, Liston is top five all time without question ... he was an exceptional puncher and fighter ...

 

Would you reconsider your position if, instead of quitting on his stool, Liston bit Clay's upper lip off because of all the trashtalking that Clay was doing?

 

Liston was not his own man, before or during his brief championship reign. He was afterwards, because he was discarded.

The first bout with Clay was likely, as you say, a result of his scant training, overconfidence, shock at the speed and talent of Clay, and his fear of being stopped by Clay's punching which he had disdained before the fight. Shades of No Mas.

He laid down in the rematch because he was told to. I'm certain.