How accurate was De Niro's portrayal of LaMotta in Raging Bull?

lamotta says he was watching himself when he saw it

 

That would be him.

 

Only an idiot would compare Duran to Monzon and LaMotta as human beings.

Duran was a cruel, mean, and vicious guy INSIDE THE RING. Outside of the ring, he was known as a great family man and a kind hearted guy who would literally gave his shirt off his back at times for people in Panama. Never known as a domestic abuser or criminal.

Monzon and Lamotta were cruel, mean, vicious men inside AND outside the ring. They were pieces **** human beings, both NOTORIOUS woman beaters, one a murderer, and the other an admitted ******.

Duran is in no, way, shape, or form comparable to those scumbags as people.

 

So Lamotta was a pornographer and a ****** and was screwing his future wife when she was fourteen or fifteen BUT he never pimped teenaged girls despite the fact that he ran a club in a notorious district of vice?

I'd take it with a big dose of salt.

On top of all his flaws and sociopathic criminal tendencies he was also a "rat", a snitch, a grass.

He really was a great fighter though.

 

De Niro looked nothing like LaMotta. I was about as convinced that he was LaMotta as I was that Will Smith was Ali.

 

Thats one way to spin it. The other way is that simply being in a soft core porn flick doesnt make you a pornographer and dating/marrying a 15 yr old 72 years ago when youre 23 wasnt uncommon. And running a high end club in a bad neighborhood doesnt make it a ***** house. I just told you what Joey told me and Joey has never glossed over his brothers story so I take it for what its worth which is a lot more than the opinion of somebody on the internet unaquinted with the facts. Jake was a jerk. A genuine ******* but that doesnt mean every single bad story about him is true.

As far as him being a snitch. What a load of horse****. The mob was preventing Jake from becoming champion, forcing him to pay bribes and take dives to move up in the sport. They got what was coming to them. They were a cancer and at least Jake attempted to stand up to them and when he finally did testify he didnt sugar coat his culpability or hide behind the fifth as so many others had. To pretend Jake, who stood up there and said in defiance of the mob on public tv after getting death threats "I aint afraid of none of them rats," was some kind of a weasel is a joke. Jake went YEARS defying the mob before finally caving lest his miss his window of opportunity to be a champion. If the mob hadnt infiltrated the sport and created that situation Jake would have never had to go through all that or testify so dont give me that bull**** about him being a rat as if that makes him less of a man. The cheap two bit hoods hiding behind their buddies and their guns were the weak ones in that situation.

 

I agree with that last sentence.
I haven't offered an opinion on any of it other than "I'd take it with a big dose of salt".
I'm not saying every single bad story about him is true. You're the one repeating some of the bad stories (eg. LaMotta carrying on his mugging activities until his middle or old aged). I don't know if that's true at all.

I don't know if he was pimping girls at his club. I don't know if his brother knew either. I don't know these people. I haven't pretended to be aquianted with the facts.
I'd take Jake LaMotta's claims with a big dose of salt, that's all.

Cry me a river. Poor little Jake.
He got a shot at the title. Everyone had to pay the mobsters and big shot promoters. Not just LaMotta. Loads of top contenders never got shots at titles whatever they did, or were shafted out of the ratings permanently by bad decisions and frozen out completely. Some fighters and there managers couldn't set foot in New York, nevermind get a fight there, without agreeing to take on a mobbed-up partner.

LaMotta got a shot at the title and became champion.
LaMotta was world champion less than 3 years after the world title became re-activated after the war (a war that had probably helped his rise up the rankings, since he was lucky he didn't have to serve and he could pursue his career).
Should he have got a shot before Graziano and Cerdan ? Yes. But there have been far worse cases than that.

No need to make a huge drama out of it. Although Scorsese did a great job

I never said ratting makes him "less of a man", since we all agree he was more an animal than a man anyway.
But he was a criminal, anti-social individual in his own right. A mugger, a thief, a ******, a brute. He wasn't a legit citizen. And he DID deal with the mob. So he doesn't have the privelege of ratting on criminals.

 

I found quite an interesting article about Jake by Barney nagler from 1950.

Mike Capriano, Lamottas first manager, the man who claimed jake slugged him, had to say it "I want to tell you one thing," capriano said. "Even at 18, Lamotta was good to his family. His father wasn't around to take care of the other four kids, and jake was like a father to them. He wore old pants and an old coat and sweater, but his sisters and two brothers, they were dressed okay".


In 1942 he paid $14,000 cash for a home in the Pelham section of the bronx for the entire family. Initially both parents and all his brothers and sisters moved in with him. He was still living there as world champion with his second wife Vickie his children and his mother, a brother and one teenaged sister in 1950. Two years after moving in there however Lamotta sent his father to live as a janitor in one of the apartments in a big apartment house on Webster avenue in the bronx that jake put a $5,000 down payment on. He gave the deed to his father. It had 18 apartments and presumably the income from the rents covered the mortgage and kept Mr Lamotta away from Jakes mother.


With partners Lamotta put $15,000 into a deal to buy The Park Arena for $65,000. He put up $7000. The place sold for $60,000 after the partners squabbled and fell out with each other.


In 1946 Lamotta bought Jerome Stadium across the street from Yankee Stadium for $65,000. According to the article He "owned it lock stock and barrel" himself with the intention of using it as a car park for Yankee Stadium with a soda pop and hot dog concession.

So Lamotta appeared to have a semblance of business sense at one point.

Lamotta had started to do these deals once he forced his manager (Caprano, who was getting 40% of him) to sign a release deal so he could pay no more than 11% to another manager "of record". Capriano claimed he was thrown down some stairs and beaten up into signing that contract but a court did not favour this view.


At the time Nagler says Jake was reading a book about psychoanalysis that was leant to him by his freind Pete petrello (who I assume to be Pete Savage the sycophant pornographer who wrote himself into raging Bull) a "former fighter who is now a foreman on a construction job".

 

In 1954 when he moved to Miami Jake sold the house that he had given to his mother out from under her, leaving Joey, Al, and the two sisters to figure out how to support her.

The partners in the Park Arena were Jake, Joey, Jakes dad, and another guy whose name slips my mind. Jake was the principle. Joey and the dad invested nothing and were partners in name only for business purposes (although Joey did work there) jake owned the Park and Jerome at the same time and made a good living off of those alone. Vikki stated that they could have lived off of them for the rest of their lives but Jake impulsively sold them at a loss to get quick cash which caused them a lot of problems. This was the story of Jakes life. He would do something really smart and then follow it up with something really stupid that made it all for naught.

The manager of record you mention (after Capriano) was at first Jim Murray, briefly, then Joey. Both guys were nothing more than place holders as Jake managed his own affairs. Jake and Joey had a big falling out while Jake was still champion and they didnt speak for years. It was partly about Vikki (but not in the way the movie shows) and partly over business. After the falling out Jake stiffed Joey for several thousand dollars. After Joey was gone Jake hired Al Silvani as his manager of record, again in name only. Silvani couldnt stand Jake (but still took his money). He said Jake never listened to anyone, did what he wanted, drank, ate whatever he wanted, and wouldnt stay away from women in training. He said Jake was mean and paranoid. He didnt consider Jake a great fighter because of all of this.

Joey said that Petrella was an opportunist with selfish motivations who wrote himself into Raging Bull in Joeys place when in reality Pete had been in Sing Sing for most of the story for the robbery (he was supposedly sentenced to 20 yrs but gotcan early release). However he did say Pete genuinely cared for Jake, helped him on occasion when Jake was pretty destitute and that without Pete the book wouldnt have been written. He said in turn Jake got a big head during the development of the movie, shunned Pete (and Joey) and left them hanging out to dry. Joey seemed to think Pete deserved better from Jake. Joey was initially paid only $15,000 to use his name and story whereas Jake was paid $200,000 and Pete was paid another $200,000 (plus his family sued and got more money a few yrs ago despite Pete having been dead 30 yrs). Joey acted as a consultant to the film and his character actually has more lines than Jake but Jake had gotten Joey to sign a complete release of the use of his name and likeness way back in 1970 long before a movie was planned. Jake was basically destitute and Joey agreed so Jake could get a payday from the book. He never expected a movie to be made and didnt know he was signing over ALL rights to his name, so Jake and Pete kinda took advantage of Joey there. Joey sued the production company but Im not sure if he ever got more than his $15,000. I guess the point is that Jake wasnt some generous saint. In fact he was the opposite. None of these guys were saints and their story is complex but some of this stuff has been simplified and whitewashed over time.

 

Graziano, LaMotta, Robinson, all of them were brutal human beings.

 

Like I said, Ill take the words of people directly involved over supposition of nobodies.

Youre the one who was acting like testifying against the mob somehow made him more morally bankrupt. Sorry, I dont agree. I also dont agree with your thesis that seems to be: Everybody had to do it so he should have played along and kept his mouth shut. Regardless, the idea that he wasnt victimized by the mob is bull****. There may have been people who were more victimized and maybe there were guys less victimized by the mob but they got what they deserved in the end and Lamotta acting as star witness in a hearing that was part of the movement which ultimately crushed the mobs monopoly must have felt like sweet revenge to Jake.

 

I dont know that I agree about Graziano. He may have been a thief and streetfighter as a kid but he was also a family man who supposedly was crazy about his wife, didnt cheat on her, and was a genuinely happy go lucky, fun, and friendly guy. I never got to meet him but Ive met a ton of people who knew him well and Ive literally never heard any of them say anything negative about his character.

 

Thank you, that's great information. What do you make of Lamottas "uncrowned champion" claim?

As good as lamotta was there was too much quality around for him to ever dominate. 1946 was the only year jake remained unbeaten as a contender anyway, that;s how good the division was. The middleweights were such a competitive division, most top contenders all dropped a decision most years.


I think There were a lot of "uncrowned champions" as well as lamotta but the titles were on ice whilst champions served during the war. Then the title was tied up for 3 further years with the zale - graziano mega fights.


The earliest jake could have got to the title was 1942 when the title was on hold but even so there was archie moore, Holman Williams and Charlie burley ahead of him. Moore outgrew the division and Lamotta did beat Williams and lytell who both beat burley so he was at least on par with the other outstanding contenders.


Chris Dundee managed two good contenders during this period jose basora and Georgie Abrams.


Basora beat Holman Williams and lamotta and drew with Ray Robinson. Trouble was that Jose also lost to those guys.


Abrams, a contender (who lost 3 years to the war himself) beat cocoa Kid, billy soose , drew with Charlie burley and took ray robinson to a split decision that was bood. This is an example of the talent at that time just in Chris Dundees stable!


How good was it that Lamotta beat the 1940s version of Ray Robinson?


Acording to ring anual ratings the rated middleweights ray robinson fought during the 1940’s were:


LaMotta 5 close fights 1942-45

Vic dellicurti ko,1942

jose basora draw in 1945 (ray later kod him in 1950)

georgie abrams close pts 1947

steve belloise ko,1949


A good record for a top welter against top middles.


however, middleweights artie lavine and henry brimm gave ray tough fights but did not make the annual ratings. In 1946 lavine almost knocked robinson out before getting TKO’d in the last round. Henry brimm drew and lost on points with robinson in 48 and 49.


Against 1940s middleweights, for all his ability and excitement sugar ray’s dominance was never quite so absolute as many fans think. There was certainly enough talent to compete with Robinson.

 

the Movie severed Jake well.

he was a great fighter and 'at times' not so great a man... Who of US, at times, isn't?

anyway his death will also serve him well as is seen by some of the posts here. LaMotta was a great in a time of literally hundreds & hundreds of them, that says enough & all that needs to be said!

 

That might be the case.

On the other hand, there's no good reason to believe LaMotta's version of events (recounted over a decade later) is the 100% truth either.
You've obviously researched this thoroughly, so was it ever proven that he actually gave $20,000 to Lou Burston and Sam Richman (or whatever his name is) ? Or is it just that Jake LaMotta sat on the stand and told the story ?
It was, I think, reported that Lou Burston denied it and carried right on working in boxing through the 1960s (with D.Tiger, for example) - but I might be mistaken.

Everyone agrees Jake threw the Fox fight. Because it looked obvious and caused a stink at the time. But has the rest of his story been proven ?

If you think LaMotta's stories are beyond reproach, that's up to you. But don't bring me into it. This isn't about me (a "nobody on the internet"). I'm not making any claims, because, as you correctly say, I wasn't there. But I fail to see how Jake and/or Joey LaMotta's version of events has to be taken as the gospel truth when the same version was denied by others allegedly involved.
Jake being a sociopath was probably quite capable of lying.