How amny heavyweights could beat the Jess Willard of Havana in a fight to the finish?

Wow, anything goes here including details ....

The Carnera/Sharkey footage is highly inconclusive . Sharey dominated Carnera a year earlier but sleepwalks through this fight and is the only man I have ever seen KOed by an uppercut that lands face forward. A one punch KO loss to Carnera who could not break an egg with his punch. In adition, the angle of the "ko" is a poor one to make any definative judgement on.

Of course there were other fixes but Carnera's entire career was manufactured , not a few fights. Again, look at his career post Louis. He was still young. What happened to all the skills?

Jack Johnson claimed he took a dive, interesting. And do you believe him? Look at that KO. That is conclusive.

 

"look at his career post Louis."

He won his next four fights. In the first he knocked out Walter Neusel in 4 rounds. Neusel had twice been rated in the top ten and had only been stopped by Schmeling in nine. This was actually an impressive victory. In the second he defeated Ford Smith, ranked #10 in the world in 1935. In the third he stopped someone named Big Boy Brackey, and finally in the fourth he stopped Isadoro Gastanaga, who a year later would knock John Henry Lewis down three times and beat him over ten. Another impressive performance.

At this point Carnera twice fought LeRoy Haynes, known as a heavy handed puncher in the same class as a hitter as Joe Louis. He was stopped twice and in the second was sent to the hospital with neurological damage. It took him months to recover. He was never a serious fighter after that, think Bowe after Golata.

Sharkey did defeat Carnera in 15 two years earlier, but Sharkey was two years older and Carnera two years better. In 1929, Sharkey had ko'd Tommy Loughran. In the fall of 1933, he lost to Loughran. Sharkey had gone back.

 

Both knockouts look conclusive to me. I think both were on the level.

From Johnson's confession, Ring Magazine, October 1956:

"I accepted Curley's and Frazee's offer to let Willard win by a knockout, because they had promised that I would not be molested any more by the US Government, and that I would be allowed to return home to see my dear, beloved mother--the one thing dearest to my heart. But as soon as Willard won, Curley and Frazee forgot their promise. They made me the goat. Sure, I got paid well for what I did, but they never would have got me to go through with this for any amount of money, had I not believed they would get me out of my difficulties and enable me to go back to my native land."

Johnson's motives for throwing this fight do make sense. Why would Sharkey throw away his championship and his reputation by tanking against Carnera?

 

Don't forget that the rules of that time also allowed you to stand over your knocked down opponent waiting to hit him again.

If Tyson can do that, then it would be bad news for Jess.

 

But I find it hard to belive Johnson thown the fight in Cuba vs Willard. The fight looks pretty on the level, with Johnson thowing eveything but the sink at Johnson a few rounds earlier, only to gas, and Willard takes over from there and relly lands some powerful body punchings in round 25, before Willard ko's Johnson in round 26.

 

I am just pointing out that a dive by Johnson at least makes sense and there is a quite a bit of evidence pointing in that direction including a written confession by Johnson.

There is no real evidence that Sharkey took a dive and no obvious motive for him doing it.

 

Perhaps, but in the end, the fight film should be the final verdict if Johnson didnt thown it or not.

 

I agree and that is why I don't think it is a fix, despite the circumstancial evidence and Johnson's confession.

I also think the complete film of the Carnera-Sharkey fight is really pretty strong evidence that that fight was also on the level.

 

The most padded record of any champion in history? Does the name George Foreman ring a bell? He fought guys with records of 1-14 the year before he got a shot at Frazier's title. There are stories of soft opponents taking a dive during his comeback. Do i think any of this takes away from his legacy?
Not at all, when he stepped up in opposition against Frazier, Norton, Lyle, etc, he proved beyond a point of doubt that he was able to beat - or even destroy top opposition. Same with Carnera.

There is no doubt about the legitimacy of the wins over Schaaf, Loughran, Sharkey and others, and they are much better wins than anything Willard ever produced. The KO punch of Sharkey is clear on film as is the entire fight and nothing suggests it's not on the level.
The fact that Sharkey beat him 2 years earlier proves nothing.

Unless you want to use that as evidence that the Louis Schmeling rematch clearly was a fix, because a few years ago Schmeling beat the **** out of Louis, whereas Max was one-sidedly beaten in the rematch.

The same goes for your other argument. On top of what Old Fogey said about the Haynes injuries, you could find a ton of fighters that quickly declined despite being just past the age of 30. Baer didn't do that much of note anymore after the Louis defeat either.

 

Chris , I'm not going to battle over your opinion. I just disagree with it and most of the argument you make to support it. I don't feel you are matching up apples to apples at all. However, that's what makes horse races.

Does anyone here believe Johnson threw the Willard fight?

 

I don't. The Johnson victory was legitimate in my book.

But let's forget the great fighters for a second, none of whom I think Willard stands a snowball's hope against...what about someone like Tex Cobb? No really, why not?

Mediocre ability, but what a chin! A Willard v Cobb fight to the finish - anyone putting money down?

 

No one is saying that Willard was a great fighter I believe. The question is how many would do against him in a fight to the finish in his prime. It's like how many fighters would beat Mike Tyson in a ten foot ring in a single five minute round contest ? Conditions dictate a heck of a lot in this game.

 

I understand the thread.

 

1000s