How Bad did Frazier fade from FOTC 1971 to 1973

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Bummy Davis, Mar 6, 2013.


  1. TheSouthpaw

    TheSouthpaw Champion Full Member

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    He took a hell of a beating from Ali and Foreman in that time period. I would say by 73 he was maybe 40%..if not lower, But after Forman Joe just wasnt right, and spending 2 weeks in the hospital after his first fight with Ali couldnt have helped either.
     
  2. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    The Frazier that fought Foreman in `73 had slipped about 20-25%. As already noted he had lost his drive and focus on boxing. Joe had started a singing band and was enjoying life outside of boxing a little more. His managers and family were in his ear about retiring as undefeated Heavyweight Champion after beating Ali. That coudnt have helped.

    With that he gained some weight and Joe also underestimated Foreman as well. Nobody really knew just what a powerhouse George Foreman was until after that fight.

    After he lost his title Joe Frazier did come close to regaining his form. It took awhile. By `74 had looked really good agiainst Quarry, Ellis and then Ali in Manila. He almost won the title back.

    Even with all that Joe Frazier`s style was never suited for longevity. He burned brightly though when he was on.
     
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah, going into the fight.

    Depending upon who you talk to, Frazier was treated on a bed of ice and didn't move for a week or partying within a couple of days. But nobody really disputes he was in some bad trouble immediately after that fight, and suffering before it.

    "If it was anyone other than the butterfly, we would have postponed." - Joe Frazier.
     
  4. BoxingFanPhil

    BoxingFanPhil Member Full Member

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    Frazier's style was never going to give longevity - because he was small for heavyweight he was always going to take punches to give them back. Plus he was a slow starter who burned his opponents out the longer the fight wore on. It's actually incredible that he fought Ali three times, and Foreman twice.

    After he beat Ali he should've said that he wasn't interested in a rematch - He won by a margin and he had nothing to prove. Ali needed it much more that Frazier did.

    The Foreman situation would've happened anyway. It is what is.

    The FOTC was massively punishing - it would've been a great finale to a career - and I don't think Joe was ever the same again, his eyes, his posture, his defence, his speed, his endurance. But the fighter that Joe Frazier was - full of heart, full of courage - didn't know when was enough - meant that FOTC was never going to be the end.

    Great champion.
     
  5. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I think from what I have been told and what I know, Frazier became a big star once he signed to fight Ali. Frazier was pretty well known by fight fans but 80% the Ali fans were not boxing people. Frazier was swarmed by woman, party's, showbiz, singing,drinking and what ever he tried as a new found celeb, the only fight that he looked decent was against the also sinking Jerry Quarry....Joe Frazier like Ali became a household name and was not until another guy Mike Tyson did we see that type of celebrity pressure in boxing
     
  6. Anubis

    Anubis Boxing Addict

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    Let's start by asking this. If Joe returns to action for a tune-up defense as soon as possible after the FOTC against an opponent he could beat but would extend him to maintain 15 round conditioning [perhaps old foes Bonavena or Chuvalo, or a light hitting but savvy stylist like Henry Clark or Larry Middleton, for example], then somehow whips himself into peak physical condition and a minimum weight [say, under 205] for optimal mobility in a "mandatory" defense for maximum pay, then who is the BEST contender he could have defeated in late 1971 or early 1972?

    Not Ali, who now would be fully prepared for a rematch, instead of being prematurely rushed into the FOTC in advanced of an expected adverse SCOTUS decision. Joe had already beaten him, and wouldn't be motivated as Ali was for Fight II in 1974. Norton, if Ken and Joe were to set their friendship aside? Ken's best win during Frazier's reign was his ninth round stoppage of Henry Clark though, when Joe's defense against George was imminent.

    Jerry Quarry, who was hot between his losses to Ali? Foreman, who stopped Peralta over ten in their June 1971 rematch? George was less experienced then, but had the novelty of having been extended ten rounds by the same veteran opponent twice recently (the first time in the semifinal to Frazier-Ellis I). Joe might have taken the Foreman of Peralta II more seriously in late 1971. George would have been a little less likely to gas early like JQ had in 1969, while Joe may have been in better shape to withstand the early storm which later ambushed him in Jamaica, then outlast him over the championship rounds. (Foreman could take a tremendous punch, but nobody questioned Frazier's late round power following the FOTC, and he did drop JQ with that gut shot in 1975. Could he have lasted long enough to outhustle and drown George in deep water during late 1971 or early 1972, if taking him seriously and training with proper focus and characteristic dedication following Peralta I & II?)

    Ron Lyle, who was 19-0 when Frazier lost his title? Big Ron had decisioned Ramos over ten, stopped Scrap Iron in three, and Rondon in two, while also retiring Mathis. He'd already received enough attention to be the subject of a 60 Minutes profile the month after Joe lost his title. The angle here, aside from the human interest story and Lyle's amateur successes would have been that he had been Ali's sparring mate. Muhammad might have been in Ron's corner to stir things up for this one. Joe still would have had three years of youth on his side over Lyle.



    The chip was off Joe's shoulder after the FOTC, and he only regained it in Manila against an overconfidently undertrained but extremely battle ready Ali (whose 1975 campaign against Wepner, Lyle and Bugner was outstanding preparation for a battle of attrition).

    Physical issues would have taken their toll on Joe with or without the FOTC. The issues he had with high blood pressure, arthritis, kidney problems, and what we now know to have likely been the onset of diabetic issues are progressive conditions which were inevitable regardless of Ali I.

    Internally, the spark was gone following the FOTC, and the loss of this fire is evident in his interviews following Daniels and Stander. Although in decent shape for Bugner at 208 after losing his title, he doesn't go for the kill after dropping his opponent, but sportingly holds back, then nearly pays for it by almost getting dropped himself coming in, courtesy of a knee buckling right. [God knows what Bugner might have done with modern laboratory Anger Induction Training. The man could hit with vengeance, but there are rare examples of footage where he's sufficiently aroused to do this. His one punch stoppage of the mouthy and incendiary Dino Denis is one, his annihilation of Richard Dunn another.]

    Jerry Quarry II was a masterpiece, but the role Jerry's own premature deterioration played in that one can't be overlooked either. I don't think Ali can be blamed for underestimating and undertraining for Frazier in Manila to instead focus on building up publicity and sales for what was expected to be the least competitive of their three bouts. Frazier-Ellis II in Australia was completely underwhelming when compared to their first bout, and Jimmy's aging decline in the ensuing five years.

    Much respect for Joe against Daniels, especially for his fast start against Terry, dropping him in the first, Stander [in a situation where the challenger was almost continually coming forward, Frazier displayed excellent mobility for the first time since before he broke his ankle], Foreman I [where he never gave up]& II [where he revives some of the mobility he demonstrated against Stander, and good resourcefulness for as long as it lasted, getting out of many difficult situations before finally getting caught], and JQ II [where his jab is superb, and his right hand actually produces the fight ending cut].

    Ellis II sees him practice his characteristic hustle, as he does his best to provide the audience worthwhile entertainment. During Ali II, any disappointment in quality of action was never his fault, and viewers I've known who actually saw Ali-Frazier II before the FOTC and Manila do consider it an excellent heavyweight bout.

    For Cummings, Joe's 30 pounds past his best weight, and after five years of inactivity at nearly age 38, he still displays good skill and hustle, almost completely neutralizes the weight trained 6'2" Jumbo's attempts to physically overpower him with much superior hand speed and quick side stepping to the left and right as Floyd tries backing him up. On it's own, as a self contained event, without benefit of Frazier's peak years and physical condition as a reference, this is actually an entertaining battle, and the score of a draw is not the disservice it's often been decried as. Interestingly, Joe might have one a clear decision if he'd opted to try atypically carrying this last bout boxing with his jab and right hand. Jumbo was well prepared for Frazier's hook, but seemed surprised by Joe's jab and right, especially with the speed and quickness he still carried in his hands.

    Ali may have been a riveting personality, but he needed the right opposition to produce an exciting ring performance. No matter if Joe was competing before or after the FOTC, I'd have been happy to pay a ticket for one of his bouts, confident before the fact that I wouldn't feel ripped off afterwards by his effort. After Max Baer "knocked out" Dutch Weimer in two rounds with a light slap to the ribs at Maple Leaf Gardens, he shouted back to a disgusted crowd, "Well, you paid to get in--suckers!," and said after submitting to Joe Louis [taking out his mouthpiece and waving to the crowd while on the floor at one point] that what the audience paid entitled them to see a fight, not a funeral. Frazier, from a poor rural background, always fought as if he respected what the fans came to see.
     
  7. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Its amazing that Joe almost won his title back. The way Frazier fought in Manila he wouldve beaten alot of heavyweights that day.
     
  8. JWSoats

    JWSoats Active Member Full Member

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    After the FOTC I remember Ring Magazine, as well as several sportswriters such as Dick Young, writing such comments as "Joe proved that his title is safe for some time to come", "If Frazier and Ali were to fight one hundred times, the result would always be the same - Frazier wins", and "Frazier should be a 4 - 1 favorite in the Ali rematch." That was the general feeling for a while. Nat Fleischer, in Ring Magazine, was critical of Frazier spending so much time with his singing group, writing that fans are interested in Joe Frazier the champion, but not Joe Frazier the singer. As several have previously posted, Joe lost that spark - put on weight, and showed little interest in fighting. One can hardly blame him - he had beaten Ali, something nobody else had done, after he and Ali had effectively cleaned out the division at the time. He was still undefeated and had that aura of invincibility.

    I have read that Joe had been suffering from a cold or flu shortly before the FOTC, and as an earlier post quoted him "If it had been anyone other than the butterfly we would have postponed." I would think that because it was the butterfly they should have postponed if Joe was less than 100%. It was known in the Ali camp before the fight that Frazier had high blood pressure. If something was wrong going into the fight that contributed to his later hospitalization, it would have been a dangerous risk. I haven't seen much written about this situation......

    Anyway, Joe had lost the spark, similar to Marciano prior to the Don Cockell fight. Like Marciano, his style mandated that he be fit and focused. By the time he fought Foreman, he was overweight, overconfident, and rusty from inactivity. I remember seeing him on the Tonight Show, and they brought out a light bag. He threw a couple jabs, then completely missed the bag with a left hook. I did not think it of particular importance at the time, but it could have been a hint of things to come.

    After the Foreman debacle, his aura of invinciblity was gone. I have read that once a fighter is knocked out, he is generally not the same anymore. While many great fighters have registered great victories after suffering KO losses (Louis, Walcott, Patterson, Moore, etc. etc.), they now know that they can be defeated, and knocked out. It is psychological as much as physical, if not moreso. Some fighters adjust by becoming more defensive-minded (Jack Johnson). Others become gun-shy, and others just fall apart. Frazier fought a good comeback fight against Bugner, flooring him while almost scoring a knockout. He himself was later staggered later in the fight, which took some of the gloss off his victory. Dick Young of the Daily News wrote "... a few years ago, Frazier would roll with a punch, reducing its impact. Now he takes them flush."

    For Ali II and III, Joe managed to get "up" for the fight to the extent that he really wanted the wins. But he no longer had the mobility, speed, and snap to his punches. This caused a reduction in his punching power and ability to avoid punches. Perhaps some can better explain the physics involved, but consider the kinetic energy involved - mass times the velocity squared. Thus, as an example, if you decrease the speed by half, the kinetic energy expended will be decreased to one-fourth. It has been noted before on this forum that after the Daniels fight, the only knockdowns scored by Joe were against Bugner and against Jerry Quarry. The latter was even favored to win that fight, which turned out to be one of Joe's finest victories. It is a testament to Joe Frazier's great fighting heart that he was able to still produce some memorable performances even after his best days were far behind him.
     
  9. Waynegrade

    Waynegrade Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Lengthy and very imformative post ! Thanks for sharing, some good inside viewpoints !