How bad was Joe Louis's opposition ?

I am yet to understand why he should have fought Franklin over Simon for basically free. I think Franklin was ranked ahead thats the only reason.

I also posted about Ray-Louis exhibitions.Elmer was knocked out in exhibition against Louis with bigger gloves. In all the previous he was dominated. He could not stand upto a old Louis. His win against Walcott was also not convincing , with Walcott easily winning the return. I don't know how he is equal to Schemelling. I posted articles about it too.Its ridiculous to blame Louis for not fighting Ray.

 

I asked for a name with actual FIGHTING PROWESS, and you give me a mediocre journeyman like Mo Harris? atsch

No, by just decent, mediocre, or less-than-mediocre fighters like McCall, Tua, Johnson, Sanders, Whitaker, and Peter.

So?

So?

 

Mo Harris was a low reward high risk kind of opponent , I say a good journeyman , whom taking on and stopping convincingly ( rather by getting stopped by him or settling 4 a decision ) means something .

McCall & Tua r ATG heavies . I think i repeated their resumes a sufficient # of times .
Peters fought Maskaev when Maskaev was old& really shot .
Johnson was a decent puncher .
Sanders& Whitaker were very big men and also younger than Maskaev .
Note that d claim was not about Maskaev being an all time top 20 HW .
Max Schemelling & Max Baer have a far less excusable record , yet ppl list them as top 20 , u remain silent then , don't u ?

so stopping them means something

 

You mean like SIX other fighters had done prior to Jefferson doing it?

And each time their resumes have failed to support your point.

You're right, it was about Maskaev's conquerors being "ATG or halfway ATG heavy," which is a joke.

No they don't, they were both stopped less times in a far greater number of fights.

But not much.

 

How are you still talking about Thompson when it was already brought to your attention that Thompson peaked while Louis was enlisted in the army??

 

Supposing they did it legitimately and convincingly , which is not d case in a significant part of d cases , he might not have been such a good journeyman , but can u confirm all of those stoppages ? and I don't mean boxrec .

McCall stopped Lewis , Akiwande , Maskaev .
2 some his stoppages over Damiani & Seldon mean something as well .
McCall was never legitimately stopped .
McCall also fought James Douglas , Orlin Norris , Tony Tucker , Jesse Ferguson , Lance Whitaker , David Jaco , Juan Carlos Gomez twice and a few more and wasn't stopped by them .

Tua stopped Ruiz , Maskaev , an undefeated Darroll Wilson ( who came off a KO win over 1 undefeated Shannon Briggs ) , Oquendo , Izon , Sullivan , Nate Tubbs and Dannell Nicholson , all of which were not lesser opponents than Louis' bunch , c d below 4d reasons .
Tua fought full d full 12 rounds distance with Lewis , Ibeabuchi and Byrd and only has 1 loss which is Lewis and even then he was not close 2 getting stopped .

Who did Lewis stop ?
Max Schmelling , Max Baer , Braddock , Sharkey , Carnera , Cream , Buddy Baer , Abe Simon and a few more .
D thing is that all these fighters (except Buddy Baer) were also destroyed by others during their prime so Louis did nothing special in stopping them .
It is true that Louis sat @ d top of d heap of bums and bum beaters but lets not pretend that any1 of these was better than d Big O :yep .
Max Schmelling was stopped 4 times prior 2 stopping Louis , which makes Louis stopping him much less impressive than McCall and Tua's stoppages of Maskaev .
D "granite jawed" Max Baer was stopped by Lou Nova as well and besides of his stoppages over Schmelling & Carnera really didn't do much .
In fact , he didn't do much even including these stoppages because Carnera & Schmelling were real 1 trick ponies that besides of their respective wins over Sharkey&Louis didn't do much either .
I could go on about Buddy Baer , Abe Simon , etc , but besides of Arnold Cream , all of these bunch of bums and borderline bums r remembered due 2 Louis and they really weren't good fighters (watched a few highlights (because it is what at hand) and was bored in2 borderline coma by Schmelling's & Baer's scintillating Ruizlike style of fighting , and that was d highlights of their fight ...yikesyikes )
So they were all lousy bums whom will always b glorified due 2 their wins over each other and Schmelling's stoppage over d extremely overrated Joe Louis .

They were either that

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who could punch and I brought Jefferson as n example 2 such a man that Maskaev still managed 2 stop .

Max Schmelling & Lou Nova were both familiar with d ref saving their ss or looking 4 d light in d dark .

Schmelling , Sharkey , Baer , Nova and Simon could all beat Tua & Grant , according 2 janitor & yourself .

 

What the hell do you mean "confirm"?? All of those stoppages actually happened. Go find some newspaper accounts of the fights if you want the details.

So in other words, one win over a great-in-the-making that was later also one-shot KO'd by another mediocre HW, and then two other wins over other mediocre HWs.

But not much.

But lost to most of them, which completely undermines your claim that he was an ATG HW.

Yes they were, because most of them never even got past the "prospect" level, let alone become top contenders or HOFers.

:huh He lost to all three of those guys.

So in other words, FIVE HOFers.

MAX Baer and Braddock were never destroyed by ANYONE else in their primes. Baer was never stopped prior to fighting Louis, and was only stopped later on by Nova when he was past his prime. Braddock was only stopped one other time in his entire career, and that was on cuts.

No it doesn't. Maskaev had only had 6 or 11 fights at the time he fought either of those guys, and went on to be stopped another FIVE TIMES afterward.

Yes he did - he beat a whole string of contenders on his way to getting a title shot, and he continued to beat top contenders afterward.

What was the "1 trick" either one had?

Schmeling also beat HOFers Young Stribling and Mickey Walker, among other top contenders of his day.

As opposed to Akinwande's all-action style of brawling? :nut

As opposed to most of the "bums" you routinely list, who are glorified for nothing at all.

 

As for as Franklin I made my comments...Shephard was a monster puncher, but in no way shape or form he was ever a contender for the heavy weight title..the guy lost his most important fights mostly...So now Louis has to face a guy who was not even in top 5 rankings...who next the #15 guy? But come on we all have to get a name after all...who next up?

 

ITT: arguing with a wall

 

I thought a well schooled historian like yourself who still takes a "KO"/"TKO" as a bottom line will probably know d details about his claims , I just made d statistical assumption , that since about 40% of d stoppages throughout history r not legit , and then a few "distance" / non stoppage verdicts r in fact stoppages , then Jefferson's & Harris' records r actually better than they look , watching their fight they were both clean fighters in it and watching Izon's stoppage over Terrence Lewis I know he wasn't clean which might suggest on his outcome vs Jefferson .

Akiwande might have been mediocre p4p , but would have beaten every man that fought Louis , possibly Louis himself but I will not argue on Akiwande vs Louis here .

No he didn't . Unless u confirm it .
Most of d times a decision is not a beating .
Going by boxrec is only d initial step in d quest of knowing d truth .
And anyway losing by decision does not equal losing by stoppage .
Even Douglas didn't beat him but I won't call it a robbery either , 1 should take it as what it was : a close and competitive fight which it's only significance was in proving that neither man was a pushover 4d other .

I don't give a shiet about HOF .
Terry Norris is in it , Marlon Starling , Simon Brown and Julian Jackson r not . Who was better ?
Ken Norton is in it but George Chuvalo is not . Who was better ?

no . Just Lewis . Sorry 4 watching those fights , more than 1ce each , unlike d people who repeat those myths who didn't watch them themselves or did it by fastforwarding , like 1 of those ss who claimed what u do here .

Mickey Walker and William Stribling r HOFers , Sim Thomkins is not .

U give Louis credit 4 stopping prime Baer&Braddock but don't give McCall credit 4 being d only man ever 2 stop a prime Lennox Lewis .

twice of those 5 times were when he was old & shot , d last 1 was beyond just shot .

Those contenders would have been cannon fodder 4 d likes of Guinn&Mesi , whom would have been breaking KO speed records with them :yep .
There were times when there was only 1 champion @ each divisions , less divisions and it still mattered **** .
Louis & Schmelling r still 1(1):1(1) in my book .

4 Carnera it was Sharkey 4 Schmelling it was Louis .
Baer's win over Carnera is less impressive than Tua's over Nicholson .

He would have probably beaten Willie Pep as well :yep
if Willie was only apetite enough 2 eat those stone age burgers & doughnuts .

Yes . Akiwande's slugging (rather than brawling) was breathtaking compared 2 Schmelling's & Baer's brilliancy .
When he tried 2 imitate them he still knocked Lennox Lewis down but later was disqualified 4 " imitation of HOFers " .

I just repeated their records in this thread previously .

 

The "details" are that he was stopped SIX times, and cleanly KO'd in at least 3 or 4 of them. Whatever else you're looking for is irrelevant.

Where did you get "40%" from?? Can we see the proof of this statistic please?

Except the ones that he would quit to, or crumble from one punch against.

No, he DID, unless YOU can confirm otherwise.

It doesn't need to be a "beating" to be a fair and square loss.

If you completely ignore the fact that Douglas clearly outworked and outscored him, then yes.

Which means you're just cherrypicking what you do and don't want to consider.

Norris was better than Starling and at least as good as Brown.

Norton.

You should be apologizing for not knowing how to score fights. Did you just give Tua points for swiping air against Byrd?

Who the hell is "Sim Thomkins"?

He wasn't the "only" man to do that, and Lewis got better after McCall stopped him.

Which means THREE of them were when he was smack dab in his prime.

No they wouldn't have. Mesi couldn't even KO a slow, bloated Jirov and suffered brain damage against him.

No it wasn't, because Carnera was better than just a mediocre journeyman.

That's something Guinn couldn't do against a "burgers and doughnuts" James Toney.

Indeed, what a "breathtaking" sight to see him hug for dear life against McCall for 10 pounds, and then crumble from one clean shot. :roll:

And nearly all of them were very unimpressive.

 

What i m looking 4 is what might make your claims here irrelevant .

u want me 2 go through a sample of 200 listed boxrec stoppages ?
or maybe u meant all of d stoppages listed in boxrec ?

those poor clinching cavemen were no atomic bull .

IM just being realistic

Except from d word loss in d end of it your sentence is correct .

It is interesting how some people magnify certain small things while minimizing d bigger .

fixed

Should I sig it ?

y m i not surprised ?

No but I don't give Byrd points 4 swiping air against Tua either .

"Young Peter Jackson"

Lewis was 36 years old against Rahman , d same age Louis was 4 Charles ,
older than Charles was 4 d Marchegiano rematch , as old as Ali was 4 Leon Spinks and older than many men's age in their very last fight .

Those 3 were Corey Sanders , Lance Whitaker & Kirk Johnson in their primes . 2 of them very big men and d 3rd a decent puncher , light years ahead of Gypsie Daniels & co .

So this time u didn't even bother 2 read d reports about d fight u refer 2 .
Mesi did manage 2 KO Jorge Luis Gonzalez , DaVarryll Williamson , David Izon & Bert Cooper .

Carnera was not better than Nicholson , whom , according 2 your previous examples 4 "mediocre journeymen" is clearly not .

That's because Stribling&Walker were no Toney .

That's because D atomic bull was no Baer or Schmelling .

4 some1 who is in d belief that Norris was better than Starling and as good as Brown (which also suggests that u consider Brown 2b better than Starling , which , in your defense , is d most reasonable implicit claim u had in this entire thread)

 

I agree, the only improvement would have been his fighting bivins instead of going to war.

 

Why anyone would argue with frankenfrank is beyond me, he is either a pretty good troll or ******ed. Either means he is not worth the time you might spend on answeing him.