How bad was Joe Louis's opposition ?

Of course the top ten are not necisarily hell on weels, but it is still a good yardstick to judge a fighter by. For example this era of the heavyweight division is not all that, but there have been only two belt holders recently who were realy interested in fighting other fighters in the top 10. They are both in the same family.

Now Louis took it to a level that even fighters like Holmes and Tyson didn't. 34 of his fights (basicaly half his record) were against fighters currently ranked in the top 10. 51 of his fights (virtualy his entire record) were against fighters who were ranked in the top 10 at some stage of their careers.

This guy redefined the peramiters of dominance. He held the heavyweight title for longer than Margret Thatcher was Prime Minister, and defended the title more times than all previous champions combined. Even today, he has only one peer in terms of resume and that is Ali.

 

Joe Louis fought some greats, some almost greats, and some not so greats.


HW World Champs he beat, they are all Hall of Famers as well-

Max Schmeling KO1, he was also beat by Schmeling LKOby12
Jack Sharkey KO3
Primo Carnera KO6
Max Baer KO4
Jimmy Braddock KO8
Jersey Joe Walcott W15 and KO11


He lost to 3 fighters. They were all HW World Champs and they are all Hall of famers-

Schmeling LKOby11... 1936... he also beat Schmeling KO1
Ezzard Charles L15... 1950
Rocky Marciano LKOby8... 1951, his last fight


LHW World Champs he beat, they are both Hall of famers-

Billy Conn KO13 and KO8
John Henry Lewis KO1


He also beat Hall of Famer Jimmy Bivins W10. Bivins is one of the greatest fighters who never fought for a World Title.


Other notable fighters he beat-

King Levinsky KO1
Paulino Uzcudun KO4
Charley Retzlaff KO1
Al Ettore KO5
Bob Pastor W10 and KO11
Tommy Farr W15
Tony Galento KO4
Arturo Godoy W15 and KO8
Abe Simon KO13 and KO6
Buddy Baer WDQ7 (should have been a KO) and KO1
Cesar Brion W10 x2
Lee Savold KO6


Overall, I'd say his level of competition was good. It was definately as good as it could be.

 

11-3 (9) vs. Hall of Famers!

 

:deal

 

Only 6 of his 25 defenses were part of the "Bum of the Month" tour.

 

Like who? Elmer Ray was broken down and KO'd by this very same "old and sick man" that you just refused to give Louis credit for beating, and Lem Franklin and Turkey Thompson were both schooled by Bob Pastor. There was also Jimmy Bivins, but he peaked while Louis was in the army, and Louis schooled him once they did fight anyway.

 

I know boxing exhibitions don't count for pro record, but for me they give atleast some indication on how a fight would have gone. Louis faced many of the top black boxers of his day in boxing exhibitions and even KO'd some of them, with Elmer Ray being one of the victims although he was past his prime by then.

This is what an "exhibition" with Louis looked like:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRsAbgV3tdk[/ame]

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Bivins and Louis too had many exhibition fights against each other. I believe Walcott-Louis too was supposed to be a boxing exhibition at first.

 

point proven.:good

Did you ever get to watch Louis live?

 

Despite my old school leanings, I am only in my early 30s.

I guess some people are just born in the wrong era!

 

And for what it's worth, I've heard that all of Louis' bouts were main events and he was favored in all of them (yes, even the Charles and Marciano fights.)

 

louis is ALTG!!!! as far as vitali goes i think corrie is a top 50 heavy all-time without a doubt!!!

 

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I don't know that much about the Murderer's row or that part of history, but Elmer Ray had a reputation and winning streak that certainly looked like it would have justified a title shot more so than a number of Joe Louis's challengers.

His career got off to a bit of a rough start, but from 1943 to 1947, Ray compiled a winning streak of 50-0-0-46, and even beat Walcott during that period.. The fight was ruled as a close decision win for Ray.. I'd say that Ray should have gotten the Louis fight without having to take another bout, but apparently the deal was that he'd face the winner of the rematch... They fought again, with Walcott taking the decision in equally close fashion..... As far as I'm concerned, Walcott and Ray were tied at that point, with two close wins each, but with Ray having the far better winning streak as of recent... Without proof to back my assumptions, I think Louis's people went with the guy who had the shakier record and who seemingly posed less risk....

A similar argument could be made for Lem Franklin who twice beat Abe Simon and at one point won something like 18 strait.. Of course, he'd lose to Bob Pastor who subsequently then fought Louis..But again I think it conveniently worked out for the champ, who just one month after Pastor beat Franklin, was in the ring with the far less deserving Simon who was sparked twice by Franklin.... Point being, Franklin should not have had to face Pastor to get to Louis as his right to contention was already well sealed...

In conclusion, claiming that Louis defeated white challengers who subsequently beat the better black challengers is a very convenient position, given that most of the "murderer's row" members had to go through FAR more to get to Louis, then their lesser white counterparts, who probably lost to them just as much if not more, than the contrary....

 

Yeah, right Louis drew the colour line ... you really are the most agenda ridden poster these days, Mendoza.