How big does a Heavyweight need to be?

Exactly. It is an outright insult to assume all of these things that take a lifetime to develop at top level are automatically present in any athlete unfamiliar with combat.

What gets me is its only boxing that people assume any big muscular guy can do. Nobody ever says a top tennis player would make a great judo champion. Or a wrestler who can jump really high automatically makes a great basket ball player.

Randy Savage = basketball's biggest loss.

 

Generally I would say around 6'2" for today's behemoths. The smaller legends were exceptions, quarried from more liberal times regarding weight differentials. The likes of Dempsey, Louis and Marciano would take out most if not everyone today - they just knew what to do with big fighters; how to turn their advantages into weaknesses.

David Haye was dynamic enough to beat Wladimir but wouldn't accept the dangers that come with trying for a knockout and, in doing so, resembled a spitfire that refused to barrel roll.

Fans value size these days because shorter heavyweights don't know what they're doing, and many aren't in good enough shape to demonstrate even if they do.

There are some curious rays of light. Dereck Chisora actually seems capable of getting inside, weaving a little, but slaps with his right and, is ultimately, a very poor man's Joe Frazier. Deontay Wilder has some explosive power and is very trim, but his fundamentals seem rather poor; his feet don't move with his jab and those combinations need serious fine-tuning.

Alex Leapai is an extreme example but nonetheless representative of the problems at heavyweight. Against our #1 he wasn't light enough, had no game plan, and his corner kept telling him to do the same thing. In all seriousness, had they told him to "take a beating" it may have inspired him to try something useful.

 

Mike Tyson was pretty effective in his prime at 215-220.

 

I have just come to the horrifying realisation that Chisora really is the best infighter in the heavyweight division today!

 

I didn't know I was usually wrong.

4.6 FAT or "by his own admission"? I did 4.2 by own admission. Unfortunately, that went to a 4.38 when done FAT. I got the 4.7 from is high school time, by the way.

Colt Lyerla ran a 4.62 straight out of rehab this year. He wasn't drafted.

Their times were FAT. His sounds like a friend holding a stopwatch. Two drastically different things. You can add .2 to his time.

He's an elite level athlete, yes. But he's not the greatest athlete on the planet. He's the most publicized, overexposed elite level athlete on earth.

Even taking the bogus 4.6 40 time. Vernon Davis did a 4.38. Tony Gonzalez did 4.49. Jimmy Graham 4.53. Tony Scheffler 4.55, Jeremy Shockey 4.58. Gronkowski, who is 6-6+ and 265 did a 4.6 at his pro-day. And these are guys who as a bonus actually know how to play football.

World class 100 meter time. World Class Long Jumper. World Class Hurdler. There is not an event in athletics that a trained Lebron would ever be world class in.

HIS PEERS are a bunch of stick and ball honks who don't much about real athletics and performance.

And has been noted, all these times and marks mean nothing in regards to how a guy does in the ring.

Boxers are fighters, not combine machines. Andy Ruiz still KO's Lebron within 2.

 

And put the lot of the 225+ 2000 and beyond fighters in the 60's and they wouldn't have been that big. And put the 205 lb. heavies from the sixties (in your words) into a different prime post-2000 and you'de see bigger, more chiseled HW's. And put Lennox Lewis back to 1922 and you'de see a smaller, less athletic Lennox. And put a 195 lb. Dempsey (in prime) into the 21st century and your looking at a 215-220 wrecking ball.
More era BS without seeing the obvious!

 

This is the absolute truth. I got a bit off track with the whole Lebron thing.

 

A professional dancer would be further along the way to been a boxer than a ball player.

 

Some of the sizes listed are off. Wilder at 6' 4", not 6' 7"? And prime Louis did not weigh 210., though that is less of an error.

Hard to say how an elite athllete could do if trained for boxing. They would obviously have a much greater chance than an average duy. Though starting late & without knowing their fighting instinct or toughness, it would be hard to dominate.

Lebron is a superb athlete. If he trained for a Decathalon could he do well? Sure compared to 99.999% of the population, would he be an eiite competitor, that is a much higher hurdle to jump.

 

I figure a heavyweight needs to be about 6'2" or 6'3" at least 215 pounds in order to deal with all the 6'6" to 6'8" super heavyweights walking around at 250-280 pounds we have today. Anybody smaller just won't have the power to put them away and isn't going to get their respect.

As for what is the best weight for a heavyweight, that depends on height, reach, and build. 245 is fine for the Klitschkos, Lennox Lewis, and Riddick Bowe at about 6'6'. 215-220 was a good weight for Ali and Holyfield at 6'3" and 78" reach. For a guy like Foreman around 6'4" 230 was a good weight. Depends on the guys size and build and whether you want him strong or fast.

 

Just wait for a sec or two and you'll prove it again shortly.

Are you 6'8"? Didn't think so. I can find lots of 6 footers (wide receivers, backs, etc.) that will outrun any potential super heavyweight. Need to stay focused ...

There hasn't been any FAT at combines except in 2012 (no times released) and now in 2014 (but again with no times released). So, of course, we are working with soft numbers for all of these "performances". Lyerla's time at the combine was the same thing - not FAT.

[Separately, since it looks like you may be from that part of the country, I do have a high regard for the conditions and environment for runners up there as I was born in Washington State and still have close friends in various parts of Oregon including Eugene and Keiser. Oregon State/Oregon - never hear the end of it (as I was a Trojan).]

Growing up/character issues.
Colt's combine time wasn't FAT. It was a hybrid -- with clocks started by hand and stopped electronically.

No they weren't.

Lyerla's "rehab" was hardly rehab like an addict (the complete opposite actually). Don't delude yourself or suggest that this was a junkie running 4.62. This was to get out of trouble more like an actor partying and heading to "rehab". Young guy, small time coke, no big deal.

Actually, they were probably fairly similar things as neither were FAT. And, as James has access to the best of the best at his level in terms of facilities he may well have had a fairly identical process to the NFL combine's hybrid. But, yes, you can add .20 to these times (all of the times you will later mention).

Sounds like you are splitting hairs or have some hang up. Publicity and exposure (or over exposure or saturation or whatever) are irrelevant when discussing athletic prowess. That would be like saying you don't like a boxer's personality so you don't think he is capable. Mutually exclusive items. He receives the kind of exposure that the best athletes in any of our major sports (and I would assume the same for a foreign athlete playing football/soccer - for example) receive. Whether the QB that leads his team to the Superbowl, the home run hitter or pitching ace or closer that wins the World Series, or the player that leads the way to an NBA championship these athletes receive accolades, endorsements, fame, money, movie roles, magazine covers, commercials, etc., etc. Nothing new under the sun.

You start off well then manage to taint every paragraph with some glib out of context assertion.

First, you really don't have a basis for the qualifying "even taking the bogus 4.6 40 time" unless you have a preconceived bias. Let's change it up. Do you believe the Gonzalez and Graham and Gronkowski times? They are 6'7", 6'7", and 6'6" - just a little shorter than Lebron. If you believe a 6'8" athlete can run 4.6 (potentially 4.50) why would you be dismissive of Lebron's ability to be a big man with that kind of speed. Never seen him run? None of these combine times are fully automated times.

Next, I didn't choose Lebron as the "prototype" for a new super heavyweight but merely accepted the very plausible reality as presented and based upon direct observation. I have already posted (perhaps you read it - in the Liston/Wlad thread I think) on where the quality athletes are and why heavyweight boxing as been dismal and on a long relative or comparative downtrend. I certainly would be 100% supportive of the contention that besides the NBA there are an abundance of talented big men in the NFL that have skills, size, fitness, talent, and determination that if focused upon boxing in their youth could and would have provided a talent pool FAR FAR SUPERIOR to what exists in US heavyweight boxing today.

Next, the athletes you have selected are good examples. While all are shorter than Lebron (some more some very little), the weights are similar enough, and the short burst speed is all quite comparable. So, what do you think you've presented and what point to you imagine you've made? The facts are in the entire NFL there are FEW men of comparable size (6'8") with James' speed. Only an elite handful or two combine those attributes - as a starting point. We can find lots of defensive ends (and other lineman of course) and tight ends that are either much shorter (4 inches or more) or large but much slower. Based upon your own selections, James would be in an elite class - and that is no surprise.

I would not be looking to denigrate these choices as they are a good group though not all - Scheffler perhaps - are as innately gifted athletically as James and we could go through each one and offer thoughts about their respective strengths and weakness and still find other candidates relative to the topic of this thread.

Which is a line that means nothing in context. James was an athlete that played nearly all sports in his youth - including football - which is why speculation comes out periodically about him wanting to play in the NFL - and could have thrown a dart at a board and committed himself to whichever major sport including boxing that came up and excelled. Could every athlete do that? No, of course not. But, there are many athletes with the kind of talent to do JUST THAT.

The mental abilities of an athlete that can become the floor leader (a position reserved almost entirely for the small point guards) and director of the offense and primary defender (which is what James does) demonstrates that "how to play football" or even "how to engage in combat" would not be beyond his already proven capabilities at the highest level of elite athleticism.

Regardless of what a few message board posters seem to feel is an attack on the lofty status of their sport - and boxing is simply another sport. It is different in specific aspects but not at all distinct in the aggregate. I've played football, played baseball at university, ran track, ran cross-country, and have fought and boxed since I was a child. You get hurt in football just like you get hurt in boxing if you are competitive. And, you like it just the same. The attributes to be successful in athletics is identical.

Depends upon the narrow definition of athletics you are using. As one of the best players - as evidenced by multiple MVP honors - in the NBA - James is already at the apex of his sport among all on this planet. If you contend that athletics is merely track and field events then I wouldn't have an argument with that - but again, that means nothing in context - in which we are looking for heavyweights and in particular a super heavyweight for the current era.

But, I'll entertain your sense of arrogance with my own experiences because I remember a few things well about track teams and decathletes. This is no aspersion on the talents of Ashton Eaton. He has been tremendous. I'm sure Oregon is proud. But, I recall the best sprinters were never spellbound by the decathlete. The best 1500m runners clearly were not impressed by the decathlete. And, the same for the 400m guys, the pole vaulters, the shot putters, etc., etc. Comparably, Eaton is no threat to Bolt or to a specialist in any event. So, everything in its own context. James can never be Eaton. Eaton has zero chance to be James. But, James if directed and focused since youth could have made a great super heavyweight. Eaton - no chance.

I'll just laugh at the rest.

"real athletics"

My initial post didn't start with times & marks. It was a description of the diverse role James carries on the court. You sound almost convincing when you throw out times and a familiarity with sports more than others. But, you continue to be 50% wrong in what you post. That demonstrates you weren't a diverse athlete that could have done anything or does everything well. That's fine. Not everyone is. That's probably why - outside of age - some on ESB have tens of thousands of posts and tens of thousands of hours reading posts or watching sports rather than time as active participants. When one confuses the relevance of both and starts to assign some permanent status to themselves on a MB talking about boxing/sports/athletics then one might never notice who the caricature really is.

 

+1.

Don't fall in to Sillynanny's troll game. Regardless of the logic presented, it won't matter that Olympic caliber decathletes, let alone a high-level one like Eaton, are superior all-around athletes to anyone playing in either league and to sprinters, which are his other go-to for these arguments.

It's a thinly-veiled race-baiting trap hidden behind walls of text. It's probably not a coincidence that he popped back up right around the time Nay Sayer lost that lifetime ban bet.

 

i dont Know what FAT is, but i think most of our current heavyweights recorded times and activities are FAT. Some might say it would be a requirement for the division.

There are two sides to both of these situations. Obviously if a 20 year old Don Bradman took up boxing and tried to make a living out of it, it is unlikely he would become World champion. But, if a 5 year old Bradman thought about boxing like he did cricket and instead of taking a wicket with him to hit the ball, took a bair of gloves and tried to hit a ping pong ball on a string, or something similar, i think we would probably have a new Worlds greatest fighter ever. Success in any sport is as much about desire, ability and willingness to learn, hard training etc. Champions in any sport will almost always have that desire to win. The problem is that you need to combine all these tangibles differently.

I agree that if most "athletes" have the desire and willingness to succeed they will do so at any or most sports (although generally it is harder at the team sports because success depends on someone elses opinion more than anything else). The problem, is that i dont see anybody with that desire to train, learn and do the hard yards.

To be honest, i am a big believer that in any sport, if you are prepared for those three things, you will be able to succeed at any sport (although as i said, with team sports you probably need to throw in the concept of being friendly/liked by the right person). It isnt just boxing, it is any sport. The problem is very few people are prepared to put in these extra yards. Obviously natural talent helps people take certain short cuts but it is only half the battle, imo. A hard worker will eventually beat a naturally gifted person, in any sport.

 

Ok, you and I are taking this off the rails and everyone else will be bored, but let's go…

The combine uses first move hand time plus an auto finish and keeps FAT behind the screens, yes. But it's an auto finish which is more important because overeager scouts and nut huggers tend to "anticipate" a finish. It's much harder to do that at the start. You would have to delay your watch. So, let's say "auto finish" time. That's the 40 standard. What was the standard used on Lebron's 40? A Sports Illustrated hearsay article for the frothing fans? I like to tell people I ran a 10.3, also.

Again, what was Lebron's method? Where is the provenience in that time? I doubt it was auto finish. Probably a couple SI writer/hanger-on's closing their eyes and hitting a stopwatch so they can keep in his good graces. I'll take the combine results (as horribly inaccurate as my track guy self finds them) over some SI article hearsay bull****.

He didn't train **** for the combine. He put up numbers in the bench press that I could beat on my worst day. He's just a big, fast dude.

He's a dominant athlete in his sport. I just don't think his skill set is inherently transferable to other sports. People who suggest such drivel do a disservice to elite athletes in all sports and probably have never participated on such a level. Stefan Holm had a 54" running vertical jump. He missed out on being the next MJ, I guess.

It's funny because if you follow the converse to this contention, you must be saying that Frazier, Ali, Holmes and Tyson by boxing deprived the NFL of their greatest talent… which in the regards to each of these fighters' physical gifts, is a goddamn laugher.


more to come… got to walk the dog.

 

To answer the question originally posted, I'd say 210 lbs is the new floor (though careful matchmaking may result in a smaller man getting an ABC belt once Wlad retires).