How can anyone argue about Marciano not being elite?

Imagine?

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I just don't understand Wilder. Why was he never properly taught how to box? On paper, he's got a lot going for him -- big power, long reach, natural athleticism, gym rat, etc. With some solid fundamentals, he really could have been something special.

 

He got into fighting late, has tons of natural power and won a lot of fights despite sloppy mechanics.

Sometimes the worst and best thing to happen to a fighter is to discover that they have worldie power - short cuts their education.

 

You can only face the best of your era- Marciano did that, as champion. Legacy wise he’s near the top. H2H he’s so small and did not have any big heavies to fight so it’s questionable how far his abilities would translate as the division grew bigger.

 

Name me one credible poster who says Marciano wasn’t “elite” nor an ATG.

 

They can’t. The only arguments we ever seem to hear from such people are how he’d fail in a different era which are :

A. Irrelevant

and

B. Unprovable

Weather he fought in a week era or not he still established himself as the best of that period and in so doing set a heavyweight record that 70 years later remains unbroken

 

Razor Ruddock?

 

Ruddock, Foreman, Wilder - Naseem somewhat, arguably Tua.

 

No one argues he wasn't a great fighter in his day the issue is nostalgic fans severly over estimate his H2H ability against bigger elite Heavyweights.

And if I'm being honest yes Marciano deserves to be a top 10 Heavyweight in the all time Heavyweight rankings but in regards to his H2H ability he wouldn't even be in my top 20.

 

Hamed is a good comparison IMO - they both showed flashes of boxing skill earlier in their careers, then seemed to get caught up in their "Bomb Skwadz" personas.

 

This is absolutely correct,,,,,If we're brutally honest I seriously doubt Rocky sees round 5 against David Tua....

 

What the **** does that have to do with anything?
@mr magoo addressed this very line of irrelevant thinking that people constantly use to disparage Marciano’s quality as a fighter.

 

Its because he was a small slugger in the smallest HW era. And there is nothing from his career that puts his chances against the greats of other eras in a favorable light. He had his hands full in the most favorable conditions.

The point fighter version of Louis was his biggest opponent it took him awhile to put Louis down. He had power but theres nothing to suggest it would translate against bigger opponents like a Fitzsimmons, Langford, Tyson. Even some LHWs like Qawi. Meanwhile Moore and Walcott were able to put Marciano down and its hard to imagine him lasting against many top HWs north of 200 pounds. If Louis was 5 years older but still had the power from his prime I feel like he would have been able to defeat prime Marciano.

Now you can say none of what I wrote above applies to his era. And thats true. But in his own era he could have fought tougher and especially larger opponents. Theres Clarence Henry, Bob Baker, Valdes, Holman, Parker etc etc. Marcianos era was small but there were some big fighters and HW had an awful lot of depth and its part of why I hold fighting Walcott and Charles 4x against him because he kind of screwed over a great many people. It wasn't just Charles and Walcott, LaStarza was a rematch and if LaStarza had lost to Rex Layne he'd have fought Rex Layne in another rematch. The 1950s HW division has the most top guys no one has ever heard of and Marciano has some blame for that. Thats not all on him its also on the IBC but if you're wondering why everyone isn't giving Marciano his flowers for dominating his era thats why.

Say what you want about Moores title claims he won them against the 2 biggest HWs in the division. And while he lost to Rocky he did a public campaign to get that fight. Before that Marcianos resume of Savold, Buonvino, Bernie Reynolds, Matthews, Walcottx2, LaStarza, Charlesx2, Cockell is probably the easiest 10 fight run someone in Marcianos position could have had. Now individually these are fine fighters but if you put them together as a group that is not a great run.

None of this is to say Marciano wasn't elite. Everyone could agree that at minimum he was a top 4 or 5 HW when he was champ in a loaded era. But he retired 49-0 and the exclusive nature of that feat implys a lot more than him being elite.