How Close To Unbeatable Was FOTC Frazier?

There is some substance to your point.
Louis,when he met Marciano ,was greatly diminished as a puncher.
Dempsey against Firpo ,showed he could be hurt and dropped ,but also that he could come back and get you out of there.Dempsey said Brennan hurt him more than anyone.
Jeffries ,by his own admission found his hardest puncher in 170lbs Choynsky and old 167lbs Fitz,his chin is largely unproven too .But as Jeffries was never down or visibly staggered till Johnson stopped him when he was a shell of his former formidable self ,I think we can be more positive about his chin than Frazier's.
The problem with Frazier is he never had a plan B, dropped like a sack of potatoes by Foreman he collected himself as quick as he could ,banged his gloves together and stormed in for more , very brave and very limited.

A bit like the Light Brigade at Balaclava.

 

Frazier acknowledged that he fought like an idiot in the Foreman fight after he was dropped. Ali actually mocked him and later Norton for that.

To be fair, the second knockdown with the uppercut should have been lights out for Frazier. I'm a bit amazed he got up from that punch because his head was snapped back viciously and he went down, as you said, like a sack of potatoes.

Would you say that it took much from Frazier's performance in the Fight of the Century though?

 

I think it is entirely possible that Frazier "won the battle but lost the war" when he beat Ali in the FOTC.

 

I agree that Frazier was very flat in some of his post-FOTC, pre-Manila fights so I definitely see your point. The Cockell and Savold fights look somewhat like another day at the office for Rocky compared to the effort he puts up against better opposition, but even then he never stops throwing punches.

For whatever reason I think Frazier was quite "up" for the Ellis rematch. He really put a hurt on poor aging Jimmy. He is a bit more plodding but savage with real mean intent in some of the punches he threw and a constant sneer on his face, like he was truly enjoying his job. Perhaps Dundee being on Ellis's corner had something to do with it.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzSJsuWczY4[/ame]


Against Bugner he held back when he could have finished the man. Rocky would have never done that.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21AL2I74UaM[/ame]

See the end of the video.

 

Good points Mr. Magoo.

What's forgotten is that Ali didn't have serious hypertension problems and wasn't putting off cataract surgery from his days as a contender.

Joe partied too much in Jamaica according to Eddie Futch, and that's Joe's own fault.

Let me ask you a question. Is the different between Ali and Frazier by decline or improvement greater, lesser? Who got better with age?

Ali 1966 - 1967 vs Ali 1971?

Frazier 1967 - 1968 vs Frazier 1973?

 

I think Ali's decline was clearly larger, since he had had a long lay-off. Frazier was in much worse shape against Foreman than Ali was in FOTC, though.

 

I don't think he was past it at the FOTC, but there's no denying his kidney problems and the fact that his cataracts were worsening. Joe was right in his peak at the FOTC, but to deny that the man wasn't damaged at the time of the fight is wrong. Physically, he was quite possibly in the best shape of his career, medically he was hurting though.

 

I'd take Holmes to take something like a split decision.

 

How misleading is this. Joe's prime came from 67-68 which would be a farther gap from FOTC to the 73 fight in Jamaica?

I suppose that means he was 3 months away from his prime when he got dropped twice in 1 round and win a SD against Bonavena? I suppose Joe's prime and being at the top consisted at the same time of when Ali was still in the game around 67? Silly... Joe peaked around 70-71. Ali lost much more from 3+ year layoff than Joe deteriorated. It was Joe's own lazy and conditioning that wasn't all that good. Still, that doesn't matter much when examining how he just can't take the power of Foreman and goes down 6 times in 2 rounds. But a prime Joe according to you has a strong shot. That's the drastic hyperbole Magoo is speaking off. Realistically, Ali lost more. I won't say was more forgone as I do have a belief that Ali physically was capable of more a few fights after FOTC. His timing, speed, and endurance just weren't there. Ali looks arguably as good in the 74 bout than in FOTC. That says it all about the difference from Ali of 66 to 71.

 

Things like high blood pressure, only come into play as factors when a fight extends over a long period of time, and not when it ends in a mere two rounds. That said, how would you explain Frazier facing Ali in two additional grueling battles post Foreman? ( P.S. Lipitor wasn't available in those days. )

When interviewed around the time of the HBO cable documentary that came out earlier this year, Frazier had said that he had virtually lost all vision in one of his eyes back in 1965. To provide a little history, Frazier made his pro debut in 1965. So how is it that the man had fought almost his entire career without the use of one eye, then all of a sudden gets in the ring with Foreman and its an issue?

I know a man who spent the weekend with Oscar Bonavena's team before his first meeting with a young Frazier. According to him, Bonavena disappeared into a hotel room with a bag of cocaine and two prostitutes. As late as three O'clock in the morning, noise was still coming through the walls. The very next evening, Bonavena decked Frazier twice enroute to a controversial split decision loss....

Bottom line, the party excuse works both ways, and Frazier was not always on the shafted end of it......

Neither man got BETTER with age. Ali was a man who I ( and many others ) feel had greater ability to begin with, and maintained it over a longer period. But, this has nothing to do with Frazier's loss to Foreman.

Late 60's Frazier was not the best version to begin with. The concencus of most experts is that his best performance was the FOTC of '71. Frankly, I'll take this version of Frazier over the guy who fought men like Chuvalo and Mathis any day. If it better suits you to try and distance his prime as far away from 1973 as possible, then all the more power to you, but I think that most would disagree. Frankly, after listening to this song and dance for the better part of the past year on this site, I'm waiting for you to claim that he was " past it " by the olympic trials.

 

Care to describe the difference between " Medically" and " physically" ?

 

Physcially his body was near prime shape, FOTC. Medically his cataracts were effecting him and his kidney problems were documented.

What I meant physically is that his Joe's body was near his optimal peak during his training, but from a medical standpoint he was hurting.

For example, I worked with a heavyweight who sparred with Razor Ruddock and Lennox Lewis in the early eighties before his popularity. Physically, the guy I was training with was in very good shape, his overall body fat was low and his conditioning was decent. What killed his career medically, was an irregular heart beat and he had a family history of hematuria which I found out the hard way after training when there was blood in the toilet after using it. Like I said, the guy could bang, was a big strong heavyweight that had good endurance and he was in better cardiovascular shape despite his heartbeat as opposed to some of the other fighters I've trained that are in poor physical shape without any other medical problems.

Forgive me I probably should have emphasized the internal medical complications as opposed to the physical nature of his body. Discussing this makes me think of Razor Ruddock and the fact that his asthma problems let him down against Tommy Morrison.

 

FOTC frazier would've been hard fight for any fighter but he was easily hit as a rusty ali showed. anyone who thinks that was a peak ali, then he knows as much as that ignorant seamus about him. ali really struggled against bonavena a guy ellis (the ali pretender) destroyed. fighters have different attributes. - liston or foreman are gonna make those early hits on frazier count. ali was not that fighter. ali's style relied on speed and footwork. making the other fighter miss which he never showed against oscar or joe. his footwork was never was the same after exile. the closest he got was norton 2 and frazier 2 after a few years of constant fights but it wasn't ever the same as pre-exile. yes you can say frazier was a better fighter than the opponents his faced before exile but any FOOL can tell it wasn't the same fighter. What were the odds for FOTC? If the fight happened after the williams and terrell masacres then frazier would've been a big underdog but after the oscar bonavena fight it was a totally different story cuz that ali could be hit and hit a lot.

 

I will never say Joe Frazier was past it by the olympic trials, but you yourself cannot and should not ignore his physical and medical decline after the FOTC, some inflicted by himself.