How Cobb could have beaten Holmes if they had fough in 1905

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by janitor, Feb 26, 2009.


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  1. janitor

    janitor VIP Member

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    A lot of posters recently have been citing the outcomes of fights on the resumes of fighters from the 1900s/1910s for and against the fighters in question without taking acount of the circumstances.

    I am making this thread to show people exactly how carefull you have to be when looking at results from this period. I am therfore going to list a number of mechanisms by which Tex Cobb could have beaten Larry Holmes or held him to a draw in this period based on their actual fight. AQll of the scenarios described below are based on actual fights of the period.

    1. Contract states that no decision will be awarded unless a knockout takes place.

    In this scenario Cobb lasts the distance and is automaticaly awarded a draw.

    2. Holmes is contracted to knock Cobb out.

    In this scenario the contract states that Cobb will automaticaly be awarded the decission if Holmes does not score a knockout.

    3. Holmes wears the cuffs.

    Holmes being a black fighter has to fight for chicken feed and in order to secure a payday against Cobb he has to agree to go easy on him. This is not an unusual ocurance and virtualy all top black fighters of the period are known to have done this at one time or another.

    4. Holmes takes a dive.

    The only way Holmes stands to make any money in this fight is to agree to lie down. Whether he did so in this fight he would almost certainly end up doing so at some point in his career.

    5. Holmes is simply beaten.

    Incredible as it may sound this is not an impossible scenario. A lot of fighters of this period started fighting fringe contenders and contenders at a point in their career when they were not eating regular meals. If Holmes hasnt eaten in the last two days he will runout of steam and get stopped.

    6. Cobb is awarded the decision or Holes is DQd.

    This is also possible. When referres of this period feared crowd violence they often rendered the decision that the crowd wanted to avoid trouble. Intimidation against fighters and referres was commonplace. It is also possible that Holmes might be forced into options 3 or 4 by threats of violence.
     
    janitor, Feb 26, 2009
    janitor, Feb 26, 2009
    #1
  2. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member

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    These scenarios would all be possible unless the subject was Jack Johnson ,to imply they could have occured in one of his bouts means you are guilty of "man love", according to Mendoza.
     
    mcvey, Feb 26, 2009
    mcvey, Feb 26, 2009
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  3. janitor

    janitor VIP Member

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    These scenarios are what boxing in that period revolved around.

    To expect a fighter from this period to have a record like Joe Louis simply isnt realistic.
     
    janitor, Feb 27, 2009
    janitor, Feb 27, 2009
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  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I agree with the spirit of the post. Quite apart from anything else, it should be noted that Holmes might have fought two days before this bout. He might get elbowed in the eye and lose his eye. It was rougher and tougher. Larry, with all his talent, would still be considered a great had he turned pro in 1900, but he'd have weird losses for the reasons you lay out, and others.
     
    McGrain, Feb 27, 2009
    McGrain, Feb 27, 2009
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  5. Minotauro

    Minotauro Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Probably via dq for no reason ala Walcott vs Dixie Kid. Assuming the ref would but money on Cobb.
     
    Minotauro, Feb 27, 2009
    Minotauro, Feb 27, 2009
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  6. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Would Holmes breaking his hand on Cobbs head be a possibility with the smaller gloves?
     
    Boilermaker, Feb 27, 2009
    Boilermaker, Feb 27, 2009
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  7. Russell

    Russell Loyal Member Full Member

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    Most definitely.

    Shaver's was hitting Cobb so hard Tex's body was literally spinning like a top. He just kept resetting himself and moving forwards. :nut
     
    Russell, Feb 27, 2009
    Russell, Feb 27, 2009
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  8. dmille

    dmille We knew, about Tszyu, before you. Full Member

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    A no-decision is not a draw. A no-decision is just that. The press would have given their opinion of who really won, hence the term "newspaper decision".
     
    dmille, Feb 27, 2009
    dmille, Feb 27, 2009
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  9. janitor

    janitor VIP Member

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    I didnt state that it was a no decision bout though I can see how what I wrote was confusing.

    I stated that "the contract dictated that no decision will be awarded unless a knockout takes place".

    Some contracts of the period stipulated that a draw would automaticaly be given if a knockout didnt take place.
     
    janitor, Feb 28, 2009
    janitor, Feb 28, 2009
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  10. djanders

    djanders Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Excellent post, Janitor! So true!
     
    djanders, Feb 28, 2009
    djanders, Feb 28, 2009
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  11. kenmore

    kenmore Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I won't comment on how how Cobb would have done in a hypothetical 1905-style bout with Holmes. I will say however that the press has always been unreasonably harsh in judging Cobb's 1982 performance against Holmes. Sure, Cobb lost the fight in one-sided fashion, but he was never hurt and he always pressed forward. He survived 15 rounds againt one of history's greatest champions. All in all, I think Cobb put on a gritty and competent losing effort that night.
     
    kenmore, Feb 28, 2009
    kenmore, Feb 28, 2009
    #11
  12. dmille

    dmille We knew, about Tszyu, before you. Full Member

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    You originally stated that the contract stipulated a no-decision, so how would it have been a draw?
     
    dmille, Mar 1, 2009
    dmille, Mar 1, 2009
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  13. janitor

    janitor VIP Member

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    The draw would not be a decision. It would be the automatic result of neither fighter scoring a knockout.
     
    janitor, Mar 1, 2009
    janitor, Mar 1, 2009
    #13
  14. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    7. The fight is scheduled for 45 rounds. Although i personally think Cobb's life would be in serious danger had he had to take 10 more rounds of that, there is a possibility, even if far fetched, that Holmes would tire and Cobb could take over. It be more like winning a marathon (while being punched in the nose) rather than winning a boxing match to me, but that's how thing used to be.... sort of.

    Shorter gloves would limit Holmes' punch output and increase the chance of him breaking his hands, but on the other hand, it would be more likely to cut, bruise and inflict serious damage on Cobb.
     
    ChrisPontius, Mar 1, 2009
    ChrisPontius, Mar 1, 2009
    #14
  15. Maxmomer

    Maxmomer Boxing Addict Full Member

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    He means no decision as in a decision would not be given either way, it would be called a draw. Not a no decision in that the fight would a no-decision. You see?
     
    Maxmomer, Mar 1, 2009
    Maxmomer, Mar 1, 2009
    #15
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