How come it took Lennox & Holyfield...

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Brixton Bomber, May 3, 2021.



  1. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Grant was ranked higher by the Ring and the IBF (I think). Ruiz was not ranked by the Ring and only recognized by the WBA.

    Ruiz was offered a shot, but claimed he was unavailable until July 2000 - Lewis elected to fight Grant in the meantime and the WBA agreed to sanction Lewis/Grant in advance of his WBA mandatory. But then Don King challenged the WBA's arrangement and, via the courts, forced the WBA to withdraw their original agreement.

    This naturally placed Lewis in a difficult situation. King wouldn't budge, despite efforts to come to an arrangement, but King never wanted the fight, he just wanted the belt and he knew Lewis was not going to break a deal worth so much more than a bout with Ruiz was worth, especially since it would mean waiting for several months.


    I'm not sure why any of the above could be considered relevant. Ruiz had had his chance to face Lewis and win the undisputed championship in the ring, with an offer to fight in July 2000, so long as Lewis could fight Grant first - but he turned it down in favor of taking the bloodless coup option, orchestrated by King.

    Yes, Ruiz would instead fight Holyfield, another King fighter, who had just had his last hurrah the year before. That Ruiz and Holyfield staged one of the worst trilogies of all-time matters not one iota. You mention Ruiz's win over Rahman, whilst failing to mention his loss to Jones Jr; the fact this was well over two years after Rahman's moment in the sun against Lewis and that since then Rahman had gone 0-2-1.


    He would have beaten him. However, the more salient point is that, ultimately, Lewis didn't drop the WBA belt; the WBA stripped him, having essentially reneged on an agreement - helped along by King.

    Ruiz was in no way a duck.

    Byrd is a different story altogether but, as is often the case, the perspective on these situations is often reduced to tunnel-vision. Lewis did sell the belt to King, but the circumstances of Lewis, by that point, has made that eventuality a foregone conclusion.

    Lewis was only interested in the Tyson rematch, by the time King had arranged for Byrd to become Lewis' IBF Mandatory. The rematch would be a big money-grab, which Lewis was financially invested in.

    Byrd, who was to all intents and purposes 'unwatchable', was commercial anathema and not even worth considering as a build-up to a Tyson rematch. The decision not to fight Byrd and the subsequent fiasco with Tyson pulling out of the June 21st, 2003 bill, followed by Johnson's injury and withdrawal, led to a bout with the then heir apparent, Vitali Klitschko.

    Ultimately, Lewis/Vitali was a far greater legacy bout than Lewis/Byrd ever could have been.


    Sorry, but the idea that Lewis ducked a fighter he actually fought (Mercer) is just not one I can take seriously.

    Lewis had no part in avoiding Bowe. That is pure revisionism. As is any notion that Lewis was responsible for the Tyson fight not coming off in '96. That was all Tyson and King, costing them $4million and the WBC strap they opted to relinquish.

    But I seem to recall that we've discussed this before, a couple of years ago, in some detail.


    Well, I haven't claimed that.

    Lewis did bypass Byrd. I just don't see it as a big deal in the slightest.

    There were good reasons all round for not fighting Byrd, when he'd somehow become relevant again, after being beaten like a rented mule by Wlad.

    Making out Ruiz and Mercer (who Lewis had already fought) were ducks by Lewis is - well, yeah - overstretching it, just a bit. I've tried to explain why. I hope, if nothing else, it's clear enough to understand my reasoning.
     
  2. ironchamp

    ironchamp Boxing Addict Full Member

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    He was a WBA mandatory. I don't remember where else he was ranked.

    There was an agreement made before the Holyfield vs Lewis fight that the winner would face Ruiz next. After Lewis won the rematch Lewis didn't want to face Ruiz he wanted a money fight with the HBO hyped Micheal Grant. Eventually he did waver and agreed to face Ruiz and came to an agreement with the WBA that he would face Ruiz after Grant and thereby fulfill his mandatory.

    What King challenged in court was that Lewis had reneged on the initial contract. The Lewis camp claimed that the agreement to face Ruiz immediately afterwards only applied to the first fight with Holyfield. Since it ended in a draw and all parties agreed to the rematch he should be recused of any further obligation. The WBA sided with King but Lewis went ahead with his fight with Grant anyway.

    Hardball negotiations, nothing more. But King wanted the fight.

    This presupposes that Lewis would have actually beaten Grant. After Lewis vs McCall, King wasn't prepared to take the gamble. His whole reason for intervening was based on the possibility that Lewis getting knocked out by Grant might spoil things.

    Someone mentioned that Ruiz was the worst Heavyweight Champion ever, so I thought I should counter that hyperbole with reality. Ruiz wasn't a great champion but he was a decent paper champ.

    Semantics. Riddick Bowe was going to be stripped of the WBC belt for a fight with Lewis not coming off by a certain deadline. Rock Newman decided to toss it in the trash on public television. Lewis showed a bit more dignity and privately decided to never fight for the WBA belt again. But make no mistake, he relinquished that title and never made an effort to retrieve it.

    The only reason why you aren't calling it a duck is because of the presumption of a Lewis victory. Had that been a fighter like Ike Ibeabuchi in Ruiz's place in 2000 it would have been called a duck.

    Lewis was at the stage in his career where he was thinking about his wallet. It was his prerogative. Realistically Tyson didn't appear to want an immediate rematch. In fact he wasn't even ready for a the 2002 fight with Lewis.

    Tyson tried to fight Mercer as a tune up and Lewis sued to stop the fight from happening. Lewis just didn't want any part of Byrd, it's quite possible that he just couldn't be bothered, but he sold the belt rather than fight.

    Had this been a different fighter in Lewis's place they might not have the same immunity to being labeled a ducker the way Lewis seems to have.

    Lewis eeked out a decision win against what was thought to be an aging Ray Mercer. One of the official judges had it a draw and some of the ringside observers had Mercer winning. It was worthy of a rematch, but that alone doesn't make it a duck. However, turning down $20 million for rematch over a fighter you barely edged does. Can't find the article but Manny Stewart called a rematch with Mercer a dangerous fight that could jeopardize his chance at unificaion and preferred a Holyfield vs Moorer rematch instead.

    https://www.nytimes.com/1997/10/10/...s-mercer-tries-charity-for-lewis-rematch.html

    As for the Tyson fight?

    https://apnews.com/article/cfa48db4c61f4af10e0eb0abc5fe9841

    https://www.nytimes.com/1996/07/04/sports/boxing-bronchitis-stops-tyson-seldon-fight-is-off.html

    https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-1996-09-07-9609060529-story.html

    Everyone remembers the $4 million in step aside money but nobody remembers that King actually made an initial $13.5 million dollar offer to Lewis which Lewis rejected. Had the Lewis camp agreed to the offer, Tyson vs Lewis would have taken place in November 1996.

    Lewis seemed more interest in the WBC belt than a Tyson fight. King went as high at $18 million in negotiations and offered to host the rematch on HBO if Tyson were to lose and he threw in an option of 5 fights of then IBF Champ Felix Trinidad to appear on HBO. Seth Abraham still wouldn't budge and decided not to risk Lewis.

    Byrd was just not seen a dangerous enough for Lewis that's why you don't see a big deal. To be fair the same could have been said about Oliver McCall or Hasim Rahman.

    I understand your rationale, but I disagree with your characterization of what took place. Had it been a fighter that was perceived to be more "dangerous" than Ruiz we'd be calling it a duck. Turning down $20 million to rematch a fighter who, at that point, gave him the toughest fight of his career is a duck.
     
  3. slash

    slash Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Here's what would have happened in '94:

    Lewis would have "upset" decision Holyfield in their first fight.. Holyfield KO's Lewis in the rematch.

    I thought that at that time (Lewis was a bit underrated then) and I still think it now.
     
  4. Joe.Boxer

    Joe.Boxer Chinchecker Full Member

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    Lewis didn't just duck his mandatory ibf challenger, Chrisp Turd, he essentially SOLD the ibf strap to Turd's promoter, Don 'King Dong' King, for $1 millon.
     
  5. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I disagree with your description of what happened. Indeed, there are certain parts of what you describe above, which are factually incorrect.

    There was no such agreement to fight Ruiz before the Holyfield fight. The leading WBA contender at the time was Akinwande and he was not ‘available’ because of testing positive for Hep B, sometime prior, and still deemed as having not recovered. It is not Lewis’ fault that the WBA left Akinwande in their top spot. Neither had the WBA made clear who their leading contender was in these circumstances.

    It was only in late February 2000 that Ruiz became the WBA's number-1 contender. At this time, Don King made it clear that he expected Lewis to be forced to vacate the title. He had no intention of matching Ruiz with Lewis.

    Ruiz was offered a shot, but also made himself ‘unavailable’ until July, 2000. That this date was also outside of the alleged May 13th deadline, which Don King was initially using as the basis for why Lewis should vacate (meaning, if Lewis fought Grant on April 29th, then he wouldn’t have time to fight his mandatory challenger within the WBA's deadline).

    In these circumstances, Lewis was within his rights to seek a fight with another contender, in the interim. If Ruiz wanted the fight on his terms then that’s his lookout. Lewis wasn’t obligated to wait around for his mandatory challenger to feel ready to fight. The WBA agreed.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sport/683342.stm

    Ironically, the initial court action was not pursued by King. It was, in fact, off the back of a court action initiated by Lewis against King, that the judge ordered the WBA to strip Lewis, if he fought Grant. This, despite the WBA having already sanctioned the Lewis/Grant bout.

    If you want to make out that all of this constitutes Lewis ducking Ruiz (who was, at this time, a nobody; that guy who got sparked by Tua) then fine - but it really is quite obvious that you are reaching.


    There were no negotiations. King wanted Lewis to either vacate or be stripped of the title by the WBA. As soon as Ruiz was installed as the WBA’s Number-1 contender, the Ruiz/Holyfield match was made. All King was interested in is whether the Ruiz/Holyfield bout would be for a vacant title or for the right to be called the number-1 contender. He had absolutely no intention of matching Ruiz with Lewis.


    Nothing of what you have written here^ really addresses the point I made, but it is quite funny, as well as being quite fantastic :lol:


    Sorry, but I don't know what a decent paper champion looks like.


    Semantics? The circumstances you have just outlined are completely different. Ruiz had an opportunity to fight Lewis and that opportunity remained available right up to the point Lewis was stripped.


    I have made clear why it was not a duck and it has nothing to do with the presumption of a Lewis victory.


    We'll never know, but Ibeabuchi was a different type of fighter, with a different record, a different promoter, a Ring rating and had a shedload more television-appeal.


    In actuality, Tyson activated the rematch clause, in writing, within days after losing to Lewis.


    So, Lewis was set on getting Tyson in the ring. It was the Big Money Fight out there.


    It’s not about "immunity". It is to do with circumstances and timing.

    How many boxers would Don King have offered and given a million dollars to, in order for them to give up a belt, so he could set up a vacant title bout for two of his own fighters?
     
  6. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    That’s a nice filler piece. Except it misses out the part about the Mercer having, at that time, recently undergone surgery for an unfortunate and serious neck injury. It was going to take months before he was ready to fight again.

    This episode essentially ended Mercer’s meaningful career.

    The key point, however, is that Lewis didn’t duck Mercer.


    Sure, but it doesn’t mean really mean anything, in light of the whole story.

    King knew he was going to have to negotiate with Lewis, at some point because Lewis was Tyson’s WBC mandatory contender and had stopped Tyson from defending that belt against anyone else but Lewis.

    The Lewis management team were all too aware that they could force a purse bid, if King tried his usual stunts (which King did), and they were also confident they would win a purse bid.

    King’s apparently nice offer was laced with the usual demands, i.e. King would be the sole promoter; Showtime would have the TV rights; King would retain promotional rights of both fighters, no matter who won or lost.

    The real kicker was when King decided to go ahead with the Seldon bout without the WBC Title on the line, thereby getting round the court order, and still paid Lewis the step-aside money. :lol:

    As I have mentioned already - we have discussed this before. The King/Tyson collaboration wanted nothing to do with Lewis.


    It’s much less to do with the challenge Byrd didn’t pose and more to do with the stage Lewis was at in his career. By 2002, Lewis was looking towards retirement and what his bank balance was going to look like, after hanging them up for good. Tyson was where the big money was and after securing and winning their bout in 2002, a rematch was all he was interested in.

    After the Tyson rematch fell through, Lewis had to match Vitali, which was a truly dangerous bout for an ageing champ.


    I think the facts speak for themselves, when looked at in their entirety.


    Why do you keep making this pointless assertion?

    It was Ruiz, who was promoted by King, who did see an opportunity to take back a stake in the Heavyweight Championship, without pitting another one of his stable against Lewis.


    The above has been refuted and it’s a pretty ridiculous claim, when all things are considered. Not least, because Lewis had already faced and beaten Mercer.
     
  7. Bah Lance

    Bah Lance Active Member banned Full Member

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    Sorry, if this has all been said.

    Had Holyfield defeated Bowe in the first bout Lewis would have been next, but not to be. Bowe won and didn't want to be mandated to face Lewis, splitting the belts.

    The Moorer and McCall set backs were a huge roadblock when it looked possible again.

    Holyfield dropping the Bowe rubber match was another setback.

    Holyfield vs Tyson demanded a huge rematch.

    So we are only talking a window from 97-98 when it would even make sense, and by that point they were on that road for complete unification. So it really only took a year while they took soft touches Bean and that European guy...so this was actually an easy Super Fight to make.

    This was hardly the melodrama and stalling you see today. Once the fight made sense, it happened.
     
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  8. Bah Lance

    Bah Lance Active Member banned Full Member

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    Great post.
     
  9. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Truthfully nobody wanted to fight Lennox Lewis. At least nobody with anything to lose. When Lewis got arrogant and lost to McCall it gave the other heavyweights time to and the excuse to duck him longer. Holyfield was a warrior and would fight anyone but with Lewis he waited until there was no one else and he sort of had to. Bowe was long gone. Tyson? Gone, Foreman? Gone.
    Evander did what he had to do. He might have done a diservice to his chances. Holyfield had certainly lost some quickness but that is the price to be paid when everyone is hoping the big British Monster would just go away.
    Lennox was the best and he had staying power. He didn't always win pretty but he beat them all.
     
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  10. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    . Since nobody considered giving younger Lewis a chance. Instead of Holmes maybe. 1992. Holyfield already got a good payday before with Foreman fighting an older contender.