How come the strong consensus is Ali and Louis are the top 2 heavyweights of all time?

One of the biggest flaws that I see in this "current/modern fighters are more skilled than ..." the fighters of Louis' time is that, especially for Louis, Dempsey or even back to Jack Johnson's time, the camera footage isn't anywhere near as sharp as the HD 4K that we are privileged to see today so how do you fairly assess the nuance of skills and styles on poorer frame per second footage?

More importantly and this really irks me - explain 'skill'. Which skills - are we talking about infighting - head positioning, ring positioning, trapping, collar ties, elbow blocking, shoulder rolling, framing - out boxing, are we talking about footwork, timing, parrying, jabbing and having off centre head placement, ring positioning, rhythm breaks etc.

Which exact skills are today's fighter so much more skilled than a Schmelling or a Ezzard or a Liston or an Ali or a Holmes at doing?

I've seen talk of modern elite HW fighters - in which way? What skills do they have that are an evolution on previous fighters and more importantly which skills have devolved and almost disappeared that would be exploited by the likes of a Louis or Ali?

When I learned to tuck my chin, my kru used to tell me that being in shape is a skill, being able to go through fire and take shots without showing pain is also a skill. Being big and being able to bounce around the ring somewhat, very impressive, but when often followed up with low punch output in comparison to a more efficient, seemingly stationary fighter that is always poised and balanced to throw and defend punches in combination, how impressive is it really? Unless you're prime Ali or RJJ, one style is much more sustainable and 'correct' and for most normal humans not blessed with outlier genetics and athletic ability, more conducive to greater skill development when trained.

 

I'm reinforcing it. He was seven months removed from his obliteration of Floyd Patterson. No one said the brash kid would beat the feeble old man at the time.

 

Tim was a victim of Don King's chicanery.

 

First, let’s define "skill" in boxing. It’s a blend of physical tools and mental mastery: footwork, timing, distance control, head positioning, defensive techniques (parrying, shoulder rolling, framing), offensive versatility (jabbing, infighting, trapping, combination punching), ring IQ, and adaptability. Your kru was right—durability and conditioning are skills too, but they’re enhanced today by sports science. Modern fighters benefit from structured strength and conditioning programs, nutrition plans, and recovery methods that weren’t available to Louis or Dempsey. A fighter like Floyd Mayweather Jr. or Manny Pacquiao could sustain peak performance into their late 30s and 40s, something much rarer in earlier eras due to less advanced training knowledge and sports medicine.

When comparing modern fighters to past fighters, the biggest difference is in how they fight at range and use footwork. Ali was one of the first to showcase what elite footwork could achieve, and after him, fighters refined and expanded on it, leading to masters of angles, positioning, circling, and feinting like Usyk and Lomachenko. These footwork-based strategies were far less common in the past. Fighters today are also much better at utilizing and building off the jab. In earlier eras, having a great jab was often reserved for the elite, while many fighters never fully developed one. Now, almost every top fighter has a solid jab, making it a more fundamental part of the sport.

Combination punching has also evolved. While past fighters may have thrown more punches overall, it was often on the inside, where shots were shorter and smothered. Today, most combinations are thrown at mid-to-long range, meaning fewer punches but with better extension and leverage, leading to harder, more effective shots. The shoulder roll has also seen an evolution—fighters like Archie Moore and James Toney used it primarily as an offensive tool to slip inside and counter, but Mayweather took it further by making it a defensive system that allowed him to hit, evade, and control exchanges with minimal risk.

Southpaw strategy has also advanced significantly. In the past, southpaws often relied mostly on their left hand to catch opponents off guard. Now, they are well-rounded, using both hands effectively while mastering techniques like hand-fighting and creating outside angles to land clean shots.

Despite these advancements, some skills have faded. Infighting is becoming a lost art. Joe Louis’ devastating short hooks, Dempsey’s swarming pressure, and Henry Armstrong’s relentless inside work are much rarer today. Modern heavyweights, in particular, rely more on range control and clinching rather than effective close-quarters fighting.

Overall, while certain areas of the sport have declined in emphasis, the technical evolution in range control, footwork, jab usage, defensive systems, and tactical adaptability makes modern fighters, on average, more skilled than those in the past.

 

I think today's fighters are more wary of getting hit less especially at heavyweight. A lot of the past heavyweights greats were fighting more often but taking far more punishment. The average heavyweight today is like 235 pounds and likely on PED's so you can't get hit like that at a certain point. There is a reason why mosrt all the dominant forces in boxing in modern s are fighting he try to minimize getting hit clean as much as possible

Uysk is a great balance he has both the old skillsets combined with new + his advantages in stamina and workrate which most the big guys can't quite match which so has made him a nightmare to deal with despite some disadvantages he had. Guys like Fury and Joshua could have definitely done with these facing Uysk. You obviously had the Kiltschko's who dominated for so long who perfected there styles so they didn't really have to take risks they didn't need to and overcommit it doesn't necessarily make it any less of a skill even if it might not be as pleasing on the eye.

I think there is truth on both sides. Boxing would be a better sport today if we got more of the best matchups I think that's more of a problem than the skill lacking.

 

For sure but we're starting to see more of that because of Turki so hopefully that trend continues

 

When I use that phrase, I mean the best heavyweights available in the modern period. So making it clear we're not talking Ali vs a fringe top 10 guy.

As @OddR pointed out, the biggest differences are in size, strength & conditioning, PED use. Although @themaster458's stylistic comments are interesting, most of what's going on, IMO, is that you have guys fueled differently than in the past. The population you're drawing from is also physically larger than most past eras, so you've got more athletic big men.

 

Much of this is correct but I don't see the lower regularity of exhibition in previous eras as a lack of the skill or an absolute evolution of skill - sometimes, it's as simple as changes in refereeing, gloves or down to stylistic nuances.

Fighters like Pac and Mayweather were able to be so good into their later years, partly because they arguably cheated the system and had access to PEDs and avoidance of getting caught, mostly because they were outliers that were that much better than the available competition and lots because they didn't have to fight anywhere near as regularly and as unprotected (very favourable refs and lack of rough infighting) as their pugilistic ancestors and thus avoided the wear and tear of their predecessors.

Ali was perhaps the first truly big man to use fluid motion in his legs defensively and offensively but he was far from the first. Pep and Robbie want their accolades and there are plenty of others who have used great footwork and were masters of angles and ring positioning. Consider fighters like Canto, Louis, Mantequilla, Holyfield, Foreman - all different but all with excellent footwork for their stylistic tendencies. Footwork to side step, create angles, turn and spin your opponent has been evident since the days of Joe Gans - if we are talking about the average club fighter, yes, perhaps there is more evidence of a more refined skillset to some degree, but when it comes to the very elite - I don't see that today's fighter is more skilled to any degree of certainty than a Pep, Robbie, Ali, SRL, Duran etc. with using footwork to create angles.

Joe Louis's offence was built off his jab - Dempsey wrote a seminal book championing and describing in detail the nuances of the jab. It has always been a fundamental part of the game. Perhaps it's the change in gloves and the scoring systems that have led to a change in the deploy of the jab but whilst many fighters use their jab well - they don't jab with the dexterity and variety that you get from a Hearns, a Holmes, a Sweet Pea, an Ali, for example. Most fighters today are fairly predictable combination punchers - the fight game is very much an expansion of what amateur boxing seems to have devolved to, which is one of the reasons why inside fighting and short distance combination punching is a lost art. I don't even agree that combination punching at mid to long range has evolved - where are the punchers that are superior to a Joe Louis, Ike Williams, Saddler, Robbi, Moore, Tyson, Jofre, Mantequilla, Arguello, Leonard, Duran, Hearns etc?

Where exactly do we draw the line as to where modern fighters started and in what divisions? Is it a linear cut off across all weight classes? Do we not think that Pep is skilled enough to compete today? Robbi? Louis? Ali? Canto? Jofre?

 

3 and 4 after Ali and Louis if historical standing is a parameter in ranking.

 

I agree that changes in refereeing, gloves, and rules have influenced how boxing has evolved, but I don’t think that fully explains the differences in skill application across eras. While some older fighters had exceptional footwork, the general level of ring movement and positioning has advanced, particularly in how modern fighters integrate it with defensive and offensive sequences. You mentioned Pep and Robinson, and of course, they were brilliant at using angles, but their style of movement was different—more fluid and reactive rather than the systematic angle-cutting and pivots that fighters like Lomachenko and Usyk have refined today. The distinction isn’t that fighters of the past lacked footwork but that modern fighters, especially at the elite level, have made it a more universally drilled skill across weight classes.

Regarding the jab, I never claimed it wasn’t a fundamental weapon in the past—it absolutely was. But the key difference is that today, nearly every elite fighter incorporates a well-developed jab, whereas in the past, it was more selective. Many top fighters historically relied on other weapons without consistently building their entire offense around the jab. Today’s fighters tend to use it more systematically in setups, feints, and range control, making it a more common skill rather than something reserved for the very best technicians.

On combination punching, I’m not saying today’s fighters throw better combinations in every way, but the way combinations are structured has evolved. Older fighters often worked more in tight, compact bursts on the inside, whereas today’s elite fighters tend to throw at mid-range with greater emphasis on positioning and exit strategies. The game has become less about relentless pressure and more about tactical positioning, which is why inside fighting has become less prominent.

The point about Pacquiao and Mayweather benefiting from favorable conditions is fair in the sense that they had longer careers due to better management, but their skill level—particularly in areas like defensive responsibility, ring generalship, and adaptability—still represents an evolution from previous eras. Mayweather’s style, for example, took the shoulder roll and counterpunching to a level of refinement never seen before. Pacquiao, on the other hand, is a great example of how southpaw fighting has evolved. In the past, southpaws were often awkward, one-handed fighters relying almost exclusively on their left hand for offense. Pacquiao represents the fully realized, modern southpaw—ambidextrous in attack, using angles, head movement, and hand-fighting to create openings rather than just relying on a natural stance advantage. He wasn’t just a physically gifted outlier but a product of how southpaw strategy had developed into a complete system rather than a stylistic oddity.

I don’t disagree that fighters like Pep, Robinson, Louis, and Ali would still be competitive today—they were outliers who had skill sets advanced for their time. But that’s not the point. The argument isn’t whether individual all-time greats could compete today; it’s that the overall skill level and tactical approach of boxing have progressed. There are always all-time greats who could transcend eras, but the average top-level fighter today generally operates with a more complete set of tools than in previous decades.

So, while some skills have been lost (inside fighting being the most obvious), others—like footwork integration, jab usage across the board, defensive structure, ring positioning, and the refinement of southpaw strategy—have clearly advanced. It’s not about dismissing the past but recognizing how the sport has evolved while maintaining its core fundamentals.

 

I like what you write but just cannot agree on some aspects. Langford cut off the ring very well, as did Gans, as did Fitz by all report. Fighters have known how to walk, manoeuvre and trick their opponent right into a danger zone with feints and footwork for over 100 years. Pep pivoted and angled off to open up punching combinations as did Robbi - in fact, prime Ali's footwork, circling, changing direction, slipping, weaving and spinning when his back touches the ropes, whilst blading and hiding his chin behind the shoulder is more Pep like than it is like Robbi who he was often likened to for fluidity of movement IMO. This wasn't a reactive movement type of boxing, this was a rhythmic pugilistic dance that they used to feint their opponents off-balance, change headshots, angles, open up punching opportunities. Usyk and Loma are from a newer school but they aren't the rule - they're moreso the exception. I propose that elite fighters will be elite regardless of era and regardless of stylistic nuance of the day - that Canzoneri didn't fight out of a high guard doesn't mean that he is lesser skilled than Winky Wright.

Floyd used the shoulder roll and played in areas where he was relatively safe. He didn't really do anything different outside of being a greater athlete at the shoulder roll and counter style than what did George Benton, Archie, Ezz, Toney at times. Indeed, I would venture Toney sitting in the danger zone, without Floyd's excellent balance and footwork, countering and rolling with the shoulder as requiring a higher degree of skill than Floyd doing so and using his forearm to the face to push down and off balance his opponent in pure boxing terms. There is of course great skill in how Floyd employed his framing and leveraged his reach.

As far as back as Jem Mace, there have always been boxers who used footwork and a great jab to get in and out of danger, control range and angle off when boxing. I just cannot marry myself with the notion that it is a relatively modern thing and that older fighters were much more short-range fighters when I can see Gans down to Benny Leonard using a strong jab and pivotting around it, keeping their opponents from setting feet, framing and slipping and sliding with footwork to keep them turning and to keep landing jabs.

Southpaw improvement is probably moreso that they're no longer converted to orthodox - I don't see that southpaws have evolved to a point that they are superior to the best orthodox fighters and I know this isn't your point but my genuine reaction is so what? Hand fighting is a very old school skill - I was doing it in Muay Thai ages ago - guard and wrist manipulations, hand checks, elbow checks and traps, shoulder checks - all these skills have been honed in catch-as-can and other grappling formats. Jack Johnson was an extremely dominant fighter in manipulating his opponent's arms and gloves at his whim, as have others been.

I still don't see how the jab is now all of a sudden more widely integrated when the jab has been a commonly used punch since LPR days and definitely since Dempsey plied his trade. Louis' jab is an ATG jab - we forget how good his jab was because of how good his punches and especially combinations were generally. I am not seeing where this evolution of a well-developed jab being common for most fighters arose - again, what's the cut off point for where you can say this is a modern era and a certain percentage of fighters employ a well-developed jab?

Funnily enough, PBF is of Roy's era and wasn't spoken of in the same breath when Roy was at his mercurial best - Roy never used a jab with any consistency (the Paz fight is probably the one that I recall him even trying to use a jab somewhat consistently and he soon abandoned it and reverted to type if I recall correctly), preferring to lead with leaping left hooks and right hand leads. This is a stylistic preference and one that overcame more orthodox, arguably skilled fighters for a very long time.

 

I think we’re mostly in agreement, but I’m focusing on how skills have become more refined across the average elite fighter, whereas you're pointing to individual outliers. There have always been fighters with great footwork, angles, and defensive techniques (Pep, Gans, Robinson) but these skills weren’t as widespread or systematically trained as they are today. What fighters like Lomachenko and Usyk represent isn’t just personal talent but a broader evolution where movement, angles, and positional control are more universally drilled rather than being the trademark of a select few.

Same goes for the jab. Of course, great jabs existed but in the past, plenty of top fighters got by without one. Today, it’s a fundamental tool that almost every elite fighter develops. The shift isn’t that the past lacked great jabbers, but that a well-developed jab is now an expectation rather than a specialty.

With Floyd and the shoulder roll, I agree Benton, Toney, and others used it well, but Floyd took it a step further, turning it into a full defensive system that dictated range and controlled exchanges, rather than just a countering tool in the pocket. Likewise, southpaws have evolved beyond relying solely on their left hand, Pacquiao, for example, became a complete two-handed fighter, something much rarer in older generations of southpaws.

I’m not saying past fighters weren’t skilled. I’m saying that what was once the domain of a handful of exceptional fighters has become the baseline for elite fighters today. The greats of the past would still be great, but the average elite fighter today has a more well-rounded, systematized skill set than those of previous eras.

 

1a Ali
1b Louis