how could tyson have fought differently to beat holy & douglas

Thats the point Im making, Tyson's lack of effort had something to do with that, meaning he allowed Douglas to fight a certain way. Other fighters were capable as well, its just Tyson didnt allow them to fight the right type of fight. Theres as much merit to that, as Douglas fighting a great fight because it was pretty clear Tyson came into that fight not in top shape.

 

I know i'm coming across as uncompromising here, but the full credit should be attributed to Douglas and nothing else imo. Imagine you worked your arse off training, beat a great champion emphatically, and all that everyone does is talk about how your opponent was undertrained etc, how pissed off would you be with that ****?

Tyson was in his prime, i know all about the situation leading up to the fight, and i'm a Tyson fan forever, but Douglas beat him on merit. If the knockdown that Tyson scored would have seen counted out, then that would be a great win and would put to bed a lot of questions about Tyson, but whoever was holding the pen that writes history didn't want it to be that way, and Tyson simply got his arse handed to him.

 

I agree with most of this, but I also think most people use the Douglas fight as a barometer of how one dimensional and beateable Tyson was. Tyson was a bully, he was one dimensional, and never fought anyone who stood their ground against him. Thats simply not true. You can start with his title winning effort against Trevor Berbick, to see that Tyson wasnt only facing backfooted scared boxers.
As far as Douglas, he dug his own ditch, he was talented, but far more affected by his mental shortcomings than Tyson ever was. His poor showing against Holyfield after the big Tyson win, left a bad taste in everyones mind, and a reality check of how bad Douglas could be when the fight wasnt going entirely his way.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MriCci0ilt0&feature=related[/ame]

 

Yeah i'm not disputing any of this lefthook.

 

I asked you to name them do you think THomas Biggs Tubbs and Holmes would have won on that night.

 

Yes I think Tubbs, Tucker, even old Holmes would have had a shot against that Tyson.
Even tougher less skilled guys like James Smith and Jose Ribalta who gave Tyson a pretty good scrap, could have taken advantage of Tyson that night.

 

A quick thing about Tyson's "weakness" of getting frustrated:

Cus always trained and stressed in his fighters that part of a boxer's job is to be entertaining to the crowd. Whereas most fighters are happy to get the win no matter what way, I think Tyson really felt a responsibility to get the KO. I've always felt like you can see this in Tyson's fights where he realized he couldn't the KO. It was ingrained in him.

 

getting frustrated was Tysons only real flaw, he had evrything else. once he started to get frustrated he was a mere mortal. greatnes leaked from him like a punctured baloon once he had to start thinking. His mind wasnt on the job. cus knew this all along thats why he emphasized the need for having character.

 

Hey, those were manly pecs! Just a little...relaxed manly pecs.

 

All you gotta do is watch Tyson pre 89 and afterwards and notice the technical differences. Watch him against Bruno in 89'. No head movement. No combinations. Barreling forward with one big loaded up shot. No feints. No speed.

Just watch the post fight presser after Bruno. This is when Tyson seriously started to have a false sense of security. He thought he was invincible. He believed that he could just walk over guys without even training hard.

Tyson in his prime was a machine. He had a great jab, elusive head movement, amazing ring instincts, and quick handspeed. He put punches together in 3-4 punch combinations to the body and head and was almost impossible to tag with straight punches.

Tyson simply got away from what he was taught. He went from a super talented boxer/puncher to a one dimensional slugger. Once he stopped moving his head and being elusive, his physical deficiencies got exposed (his short reach/height).

 

I am sorry Left hook I don't agree here, Douglas won the fight because of his size and reach, skill, condition, speed and heart on the night. I don't think any of the fighters mentioned have that combination I do give Tucker a very good chance though but only him, a younger Holmes I would bet on, but he was never in proper shape after his first retirement.

 

***!

 

I think part of your thinking is that Tyson faced those guys already and beat them rather one sided and Tucker had already defeated Douglas in a competitive fight where he gave up. As far as Holmes, it might have been a different type of fight. I dont think it specifically took the style that Douglas used to beat Tyson that night. We saw Evander Holyfield use a different style to beat Tyson and also Frans Botha who was winning just about every round boxing Tyson from a distance.
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Douglas was physically big and had a good jab, but some of those other guys have some good physical tools as well. Sometimes fighters have the skills but they cant showcase them when they are on the defense or being pushed out of their comfort zone. Tyson was good at keeping his opponents offense in check because of his counterpunching ability.

Douglas put it all together in Tokyo, but it was perfect timing for him against an unmotivated Tyson and it was becoming more evident that Tyson was not the same fighter as he faced guys who had some ability to stand in with him a little. He was in better shape and determined against Ruddock, but he was still getting hit a lot. Tyson had a unique style but it took a combination of a lot of things to make it become so dominating. Head and upper body movement, speed, combination punching and punching power. Anyone who has boxed before knows that coming forward against an opponent, especially a taller one, puts you in the most danger, so it takes tremendous speed and reaction time to come forward avoid punches and throw your own.
If you watch Tysons early fights with Ribalta, Holmes, Smith, Tubbs and Tucker, the one thing that was common amongst those guys was that they werent afraid to punch inside Tysons offense, even if it was in certain spots, so thats why I say they would have chances to take advantage of Tyson that night because thats what Douglas did. He took it to Tyson and Tyson's timing and counterpunching which was usually what kept fighters less offensive and on the backfoot, was not working that night. Tyson was just flat and throwing one punch at a time, and Douglas was taking advantage of that as he became the better counterpuncher and combination puncher which pretty much stranded Tyson in no mans land, where he took a tremendous beating.