How did Alfredo Evangelista ever get 2 title shots?

Luigi1985 · Sep 12, 2007

IMO Evangelista rocked, he was the real deal... in another HW era, he would have been the undisputed champ for a long while...

mcvey · Sep 12, 2007

ChrisPontius said:

He was lucky to be at the right time when champions were looking for easy title wins. Maybe Holmes thought Evangelista had a bit of a name because Ali beat him, and he wanted to do it quicker to overcome his minority complex with Ali?
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Both champions were coming off gruelling ,close 15 rounders against Norton,but whereas Ali was 35,and feeling it Holmes was 29 and just into his prime. Evangelista was a poor challenger but I think Ali can be forgiven for taking an easy one at this stage of his career,his next fight was against Shavers,a dangerous challenger,how about the two guys Frazier fought after beating Ali,Stander and Daniels?

mr. magoo · Sep 12, 2007

mcvey said:

Both champions were coming off gruelling ,close 15 rounders against Norton,but whereas Ali was 35,and feeling it Holmes was 29 and just into his prime. Evangelista was a poor challenger but I think Ali can be forgiven for taking an easy one at this stage of his career,his next fight was against Shavers,a dangerous challenger,how about the two guys Frazier fought after beating Ali,Stander and Daniels?
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Agreed,

Ali fighting Evangelista was more explicable than Holmes giving him a shot, especially after an aging Ali had already bested him. What's more, Ali's legacy had already been well established long before he fought Evangelista. Holmes on the otherhand, was just begining his reign and should have been more aggresive about cleaning out the division's top fighters before taking a shot with such a mediocre challenger. In 1979, you had guys like Tate, Coetzee and a few others who were far more deserving of a title shot than was Evangelista. What's worse, Holmes didn't just stop at fighting one average Euro champ. He also gave shots to Evangelista's peers like Lorenzo Zanon and Lucien Rodriguez. These men were hardly deserving of title shots, as were David Bey, Scott Ledoux, Scott Frank, Marvis Frazier, Ossie Ocasio, Tex Cobb, Leon Spinks and a faded Ali.

Hey, did I leave anyone out?

mcvey · Sep 12, 2007

mr. magoo said:

Agreed,

Ali fighting Evangelista was more explicable than Holmes giving him a shot, especially after an aging Ali had already bested him. What's more, Ali's legacy had already been well established long before he fought Evangelista. Holmes on the otherhand, was just begining his reign and should have been more aggresive about cleaning out the division's top fighters before taking a shot with such a mediocre challenger. In 1979, you had guys like Tate, Coetzee and a few others who were far more deserving of a title shot than was Evangelista. What's worse, Holmes didn't just stop at fighting one average Euro champ. He also gave shots to Evangelista's peers like Lorenzo Zanon and Lucien Rodriguez. These men were hardly deserving of title shots, as were David Bey, Scott Ledoux, Scott Frank, Marvis Frazier, Ossie Ocasio, Tex Cobb, Leon Spinks and a faded Ali.

Hey, did I leave anyone out?
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As great a fighter as I think Holmes was [my top5],when you look at his challengers ,the ones he deigned to figt,they dont exactly fill you with awe do they?

Bummy Davis · Sep 12, 2007

Ali could fight anyone and people would watch because Ali was a big name to the non BoxingExpert so Ali could get away with it, Holmes was matched soft and avoided too many of the good fighters of his era and fought too many non deservers

mr. magoo · Sep 12, 2007

mcvey said:

As great a fighter as I think Holmes was [my top5],when you look at his challengers ,the ones he deigned to figt,they dont exactly fill you with awe do they?
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Well,

let me put it this way. Can you ever imagine Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, Joe Frazier, Lennox Lewis or Evander Holyfield as having Gerry Cooney listed as their best win?...........I thought not............I'll give Holmes a very small bit of latitude given that he was partially a victom of bad timing and corrupt politics, however can't we make a similar case for most all time greats? Ali was the subject of racism, the vietnam war, and a very tough era. Louis was a product of the great depression and World War II ( which he served during by the way) Liston was under the thumb of the mafia, which some speculate may have led to his demise. Holmes had some difficult dilemas to contend with, but he also had choices. Not many champions can boast such a luxury.

Street Lethal · Sep 12, 2007

Duodenum said:

Evangelista's shot against Ali was extremely controversial. Somehow, he managed to obtain the lowest ranking that would make him eligible for a title shot. Ali was coming off his rugged 15 rounder against Norton, which was preceded by his being hospitalized to have his legs drained of blood following the Inoki fiasco in Japan, and with Shavers in the wings, he was probably seeking an easy title defense to determine if he had enough left in the tank to continue. Evangelista was only aiming to last the distance, and do well enough to establish himself as a credible contender for the EBU HW Title which Lucien Rodriguez had just won from Coopman. (Within four months, Evangelista had dethroned Rodriguez.) Ali and his handlers, being publicity conscious, were certainly also mindful of the fact that Evangelista was a native of Uruguay boxing out of Spain. Being the attention seeker Ali always was, this was a convenient way for him to get the attention of three continents at once. Geographics and demographics.

Evangelista's title shot against Holmes was far less controversial.

After Larry's war with Norton, he was looking for an easy defense against a reasonably credentialed but safe contender. As Evangelista had previous gone the distance with Ali, had held his EBU title for over a year, successfully defended it over the 15 round distance, and also had never been floored or knocked out, it was part of a good promotional card to hype up an eventual anticipated Holmes/Norton superfight rematch. (On that undercard, Kenny scored a one punch knockout over Randy Stephens in three.) Because Evangelista had never been floored or stopped, this defense was a good showcase barometer for Holmes, still largely an unknown quantity as a new champion, and an opportunity for him to cut his teeth as a defending titleholder.
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Solid and fair post.

My dinner with Conteh · Sep 12, 2007

Names bandied around before Ali agreed to fight Evangelista were Duane Bobick and South African no-hoper Mike Schutte. When the latter fell through when Schutte was sparked by Kallie Knoetze...but he did beat a guy named Ringo Starr so Ali probably felt he was at least as good as Evangelista.

Duodenum · Sep 13, 2007

mr. magoo said:

Do you suppose that chicken Alfredo was a dish named after Evangelista? Perhaps this is a recipe that even Bean fart used in preparation for some of his matches.
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Well, that's the last time I eat Italian for a while!

Duodenum · Sep 13, 2007

timmers612 said:

I remember someone in print called him Alfredo the tomato, and oh was he awful! I don't believe Ali trained a week for him except maybe for extra bowls of ice cream and it was such an awful half sparring session.
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Damnit, the garden is now producing tomatoes, and now I can't eat them! (Thanks to your timely reminder, I'm having to give them away. Thanks a lot!:barf)

TBooze · Sep 13, 2007

Evangelista was bad, but he was no Richard Dunn

Duodenum · Sep 13, 2007

TBooze said:

Evangelista was bad, but he was no Richard Dunn
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"If I was in the same kind of shape for this one that I was in for Jimmy Young, Dunn would be Champion now."
-Muhammad Ali
(How's that for a scary thought?:scaredas

TBooze · Sep 13, 2007

Duodenum said:

"If I was in the same kind of shape for this one that I was in for Jimmy Young, Dunn would be Champion now."
-Muhammad Ali
(How's that for a scary thought?:scaredas
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If that was the case, then Stallone could of actually made RockyII greater than the original. He could of got Weathers to challenged Dunn in 77 and Carl would of been 50/50 to actually win the Heavyweight Championship....

RockyII... Rocky actually winning the real Heavyweight Championship of the World!:hey

Mendoza · Sep 13, 2007

Duodenum said:

Evangelista's shot against Ali was extremely controversial. Somehow, he managed to obtain the lowest ranking that would make him eligible for a title shot. Ali was coming off his rugged 15 rounder against Norton, which was preceded by his being hospitalized to have his legs drained of blood following the Inoki fiasco in Japan, and with Shavers in the wings, he was probably seeking an easy title defense to determine if he had enough left in the tank to continue. Evangelista was only aiming to last the distance, and do well enough to establish himself as a credible contender for the EBU HW Title which Lucien Rodriguez had just won from Coopman. (Within four months, Evangelista had dethroned Rodriguez.) Ali and his handlers, being publicity conscious, were certainly also mindful of the fact that Evangelista was a native of Uruguay boxing out of Spain. Being the attention seeker Ali always was, this was a convenient way for him to get the attention of three continents at once. Geographics and demographics.

Evangelista's title shot against Holmes was far less controversial.

After Larry's war with Norton, he was looking for an easy defense against a reasonably credentialed but safe contender. As Evangelista had previous gone the distance with Ali, had held his EBU title for over a year, successfully defended it over the 15 round distance, and also had never been floored or knocked out, it was part of a good promotional card to hype up an eventual anticipated Holmes/Norton superfight rematch. (On that undercard, Kenny scored a one punch knockout over Randy Stephens in three.) Because Evangelista had never been floored or stopped, this defense was a good showcase barometer for Holmes, still largely an unknown quantity as a new champion, and an opportunity for him to cut his teeth as a defending titleholder.
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Well put. To quote Holmes, " Ali took Evangelsita, and Zannon the distance. I knocked them out. "

mr. magoo · Sep 13, 2007

Mendoza said:

Well put. To quote Holmes, " Ali took Evangelsita, and Zannon the distance. I knocked them out. "
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And indeed what a career accomplishment it was. He managed to do better against Evangelista than Lorenzo Zanon, who retired with a total of 9 knockouts in 27 wins.

Woo hoo!!!!! :happy

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