How did Ray Robinson navigate such a gifted path as a pro ?

Also find it funny that Sugar Ray Robinson was happy to get in the ring with Aaron Wade at the end of his career when he was shot. If money was the problem why was it suddenly no longer a problem when Wade was past it.

 

1) To sum it up one fighter on top for many years not fighting several of the best doesn’t mean anything.

His fans will blame promoters, seek excuses, etc...

2) Or if they aren’t his fans they will give him the Larry Holmes treatment for missing out on several top fighters.

3) About 1/3 of the fans call it as it is.

 

If you fight 10-15 times a year but avoid say 5 really good fighters over the course of time, year after year call it for what it is.

I never said Robinson didn’t fight talented fighters. I’m saying he avoided many talented fighters.

GGG competition was not as good. That has zero to do with this thread.

 

Yes, you clearly think a fighter has to fight all the main contenders a division up not to "avoid" anyone. So how many then has your boy GGG avoided?

 

two points

at the time they fought Robinson had moved up and was fighting consistently at middle. He was the reigning welter champion and so didn't have as much worry about losing status as a welter if he lost to a middle.

It is certainly possible that Wade cold-cocking Robinson on the street (a crime, by the way) might have given Robinson an incentive to get Wade into the ring for revenge regardless of purse.

 

GGG never fought Floyd Mayweather, Bernard Hopkins, Manny Pacquiao, Miguel Cotto, Joe Calzaghe, Roy Jones, Andre Ward, Billy Jo Saunders, Carl Froch, Julio Cesar Chavez jr, Chad Dawson, Erislandy Lara, Jermall Charlo, Sergey Kovalev, Sergio Martinez, Felix Sturm...

If you've been fighting since 2006 and somehow managed not to face a dozen or more talented fighters who were world champions in or around your division, some of whom were also calling you out, then call it what it is.

 

"Holmes"

Was the heavyweight champion, so there is no one who is too big for him to fight. Not fighting top heavyweight contenders is a reasonable criticism in his case.

You have never explained why Robinson as a welter contender should be fighting middleweights at all,

let alone claiming he ducked them. It is not reasonable to ask him to clean out the division above the one he is fighting in. And some of the men you have listed were really two divisions up.

The top middle he fought, LaMotta, was not a particularly dangerous puncher and could draw good gates. It is in a sense selecting the opponent, but another weakness of your argument is it is not at all clear that most of the guys you claim Robinson "avoided"--which is a bit different from not being interested in fighting a man because of a poor financial reward--were in fact as good or better than LaMotta.

*In fairness to your argument, I think it is valid concerning LaMotta, but you are making it for the welter Robinson rather than the big middle Jake.

 

"Burley"

When was Burley the #1 contender? Williams was the #1 contender coming out of 1945, when Zale returned from the war. LaMotta was the #1 rated contender in 1946.

It seems your logic should lead you to criticize Zale for not defending against Williams or LaMotta, but why Burley?

Burley lost in 1945 to Williams. Williams lost in 1946 to Lytell, Cerdan, and LaMotta. Lytell was in and out and had lost in 1945 to several men, including once to LaMotta and twice to old Walter Woods.

So cutting to the chase, who exactly decides which man is the top contender and on what basis? There are two versions of a number one contender. One is the guy who has cleaned out the other contenders, like Liston in his day, or Robinson at welter back in the 1940's. The other type is a guy who is #1 because someone has to be. The 1946 middle contenders did not have a standout as LaMotta did not fight Williams or Burley during the war years, Williams who had done the best during the war then lost in 1946 to Cerdan and LaMotta, while Burley had lost to Williams in 1945. So while I think one can make a reasonable argument for LaMotta, Cerdan, Burley, and probably a couple of others, no one is the obvious outstanding contender.

Zale not surprisingly goes for the fighter the general public much prefers as his challenger, Graziano, who in fairness is on a big KO winning streak against top welters. The public at the time was not put off by that, and in the event the gate at Yankee Stadium was immense for a middle fight.

 

Jake LaMotta fought Lloyd Marshall in Cleveland where both fighters were popular. By the way, a number of the other Murderers' Row fighters never fought in Cleveland, including Charley Burley and Holman Williams. Larry Atkins, the matchmaker at the Arena in Cleveland, may have felt that bouts involving Burley and Williams weren't going to draw large gates in the city.

- Chuck Johnston

 

Sugar Ray Robinson didn't fight in California until late 1947. For that first bout, Robinson fought California Jackie Wilson at the Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles, winning by a TKO over Wilson in the seventh round. Important bouts usually drew significantly larger gates at the Olympic that at other California indoor venues up to that time. But Babe McCoy, the matchmaker at the Olympic, appeared to steer clear of the Murders' Row fighters while Benny Ford, the promoter at the Civic Auditorium in San Francisco; Charley McDonald, the matchmaker at the Hollywood Legion Stadium; and the promoters or matchmakers at the Auditorium in Oakland did not.

- Chuck Johnston

 

Graziano built his reputation against welterweights, he hadn't beaten many if any middleweights of note and I fail to see how his exploits against fighters in another division should have landed him a shot against Zale. He was almost totally unproven against middleweights.

 

Dont get mad at me for calling your nonsense posts what they are (just like everyone else here btw). You posted it. It was ignorant. I pointed it out (like others). And yet because I attached your name to your ignorant post you get mad at me. I guess I should have just not addressed the originator of this nonsense post and let everyone else who can read simply look at the first message and see that the originator of this crap was none other than you. I can blame you. If attached my name to this turd of an argument Id want people to forget it was mine as quickly as possible... we get your point. Both in this article the point on the top of your dunce cap. Everyone else gets your point. Trust me, nobody missed your point. We just know enough to know its not valid.

 

Another thing I take issue with is this cynical idea that all fighters are almost solely motivated by making the most money at the last amount of risk and will only fight dangerous opponents if they absolutely have to or an enormous sum of money is at stake. Some fighters may operate that way but that clearly doesn't seem to be the case for everyone.

Throughout his career Lennox Lewis sought out the most dangerous opponents he possibly could. He didn't take the path of least resistance. Wladimir Klitschko defended against the best opponents available throughout his reign and didn't seek out easy paydays against guys who were not world class. His last 3 defenses were against Kubrat Pulev, Bryant Jennings, and Tyson Fury all of whom were highly ranked.

As I've pointed out Joey Giardello constantly tested himself against the best in the world when there was no obligation whatsoever for him to do so.

 

Nonsense. Thats not how it worked. Unlike today where every contender is signed under a promotional banner back in the 1940s LaMotta didnt have “a promoter.” Promoters operated independant clubs all over the country and pursued fights and fighters based on their percieved ability to draw. Typically a fighter had to come to that town or venue and showcase his ability first a few times to build a following before a big fight could be secured. So the idea that LaMotta could just go to some random promoter and demand that he match him in his club with some other random fighter is just fantasy. Its just not how the business operated. Promoters ran the sport and each had their own littlw feifdoms. It wasnt like today with a handful of big powerful promoters and a handful of media outlets. You didnt just go to a promoter in Detroit and demand a fight with some rando who had never fought there and why would anyone do that anyway? Give a charity payday to some boring colorless fighter like Burley who couldn't draw flies? No, it simply didnt work like that.