How did Ray Robinson navigate such a gifted path as a pro ?

I literally don't know what you're on about, but this has been explained to you over and over but you as usual refuse to take in what people tell you.

 

I don't think I've even commented on this thread for that very reason. It's a joke. SRR didn't navigate this protected path as a pro, as commenting on a thread with such a premise seems like a waste of time.

 

Off the Boxing Register, Robinson fought 23 fights against fighters rated at the time he fought them before he got his title shot in December of 1946.

For their ENTIRE CAREERS, Monzon had 15 such fights, Hagler 18 (19 if Leonard is counted despite his layoff) and Leonard had 21.

 

"The fact is he left several black contenders out of the action for title shots, so many of them were left fighting each other."

When was he champion in the same division as the men you have named?

You have never answered or dealt with why a welterweight CONTENDER must fight middleweight contenders at all, let alone clean out a higher division.

Nor have you ever focused on LaMotta not fighting most of these men although he was in the same division.

"Randy Turpin"

Odd point to say the least. Fighting a black man proves he was ducking black men?

An interesting point about Robinson is that when he abandoned the title in both the welter and middle divisions the men who emerged as his successors (Gavilan & Olson) had already lost to him in title defenses.

I wonder if any other figure in boxing history could say that?

 

No, he hasn't. And probably won't.

 

Robinson was both a welter and a middle and he wasn't shy about giving up weight. As a champion in both divisions, where are the fights with the top black talent of the times?

I didn't directly state my point, I just thought its odd that one of the times he fought a top black opponent, be lost, and think other black opponents he did not fight were better than Randy Turpin.

 

Robinson won the middleweight title in 1951. The July 1951 ratings issued by the NBA were as follows:

Sugar Ray Robinson
1. Randy Turpin
2. Dave Sands
3. Laurent Dauthuille
4. Robert Villemain
5. Rocky Graziano
6. Walter Cartier

Robinson's next fight was against... Randy Turpin. As to the top black fighters he was supposedly denying title shots to:

Ezzard Charles was the reigning heavyweight champion.
Archie Moore was a full fledged light-heavyweight and would win the light-heavyweight title the following year.
Lloyd Marshall was also a light-heavy and would retire that year after consecutive KO defeats.
Charley Burley had retired the previous year.
Holman Williams had retired three years earlier.
Cocoa Kid had also retired three years earlier
Eddie Booker had retired in 1944.

 

Mad at you ? I find you entertaining . All these years and you're still such an unresolved, unhappy guy continuing to take the time to spew venom on boxing boards. I can only imagine how pathetic your life must be out in the Boondocks. That said, I'm sure you earned it.

 

It’s interesting to see how many people don’t get the the thread’s point and then watching it snowball.

 

"Robinson was both a welter and a middle"

Not at the same time.

"he wasn't shy about giving up weight."

You are correct, but why should the fact that Robinson consistently fought bigger men be held against him? and used as a weapon to demand that he fight even more big men or even bigger men?

Robinson fought 11 fights against men who outweighed him by ten lbs or more. Burley only had five such fights. Why assume therefore that only Burley was forced to fight big men?

Robinson's only loss prior to 1951 (11 years after turning pro) was to a man who outweighed him by 16 lbs. His third loss in 1952 was to a man who outweighed him by 15 lbs. His only other loss was to Turpin, who was four lbs heavier with the defeat immediately reversed.

In contrast, Burley lost to Eddie Dolan despite a 9 lb weight pull, and lost to Holman Williams despite a 7 lb weight pull. He also lost to Zivic at even weight.

Let's look at Robinson's record as a welter:

Five men (other than Cochrane who was in the army and not fighting) were rated twice in the top three of the welter division from 1941 to 1950 when Robinson was rated in that division-----Jackie Wilson, Henry Armstrong, Tommy Bell, Bernard Docusen, Kid Gavilan

Wilson, Armstrong, Bell, and Gavilan were black. Docusen was Filipino-Creole. Robinson fought all of them.

Discounting Cochrane, these men were the top rated welters each year other than Robinson: (*Robinson fought)

1941-----Jackie Wilson*
1942-----Henry Armstrong*
1943-----Tippy Larkin
1944-----Henry Armstrong*
1945-----Tommy Bell*
1946-----Tommy Bell*
1947-----Gene Burton
1948-1950-----Kid Gavilan*

So the guys he missed were the white Larkin, probably overall the best welter of the forties Robinson did not fight, and Burton who had a great 1947 but lost in early 1948 to Docusen & Charley Williams and so fell back in the ratings. Docusen got the title fight that year, and his overall career record is better than that of Burton by far.

Bottom line is that ironically, considering your argument, the white Larkin is probably the best welter Robinson missed (or ducked in your terms). Larkin was a good boxer but had a weak jaw and on paper is an unlikely threat to the fast and powerful punching Robinson.

As for the middles, we can go into that, but I think the ratings show that the top-rated middles from 1946 on were mainly white and so it is not surprising that most of Robinson's middle opponents were white.

"other black opponents he did not fight were better than Turpin"

Relies on the dubious argument that the wartime competition, with millions of men all around the world in the military, was better or even on par with post-war competition.

Personally, I think gaining a high rating during the war is under a cloud unless the fighter could maintain this position after the war.

 

I don't think Tippy Larkin is the best welterweight he missed out on, that would probably be Billy Graham. But by the point Graham reached his prime Robinson was campaigning almost entirely at middleweight and only rarely ventured down to welterweight. But he could have fought Graham instead of Charley Fusari if he was so inclined.

 

From November 24, 1941 to August 1942, Charley Burley was managed by Bobby Eaton. According to a news item in the August 11, 1942 edition of the Minneapolis Star, Burley was going to be managed by Sammy Goldman of New York. Note- I am having tough time trying to pinpoint the time when Tommy O'Loughlin became Burley's manager. It is doubtful that Goldman managed Burley more than a month or two.

- Chuck Johnston

 

I first posted that Larkin was the best welter "of the forties" that Robinson missed out on. I think that is true. Graham was never even rated as a top ten welter until 1950. In 1950 the top three in order after Robinson at the end of the year were Gavilan, Graham, Fusari. In 1951 with Robinson moving to middle, their order was Gavilan, Fusari, Graham. I think if you go into the fifties, a case can be made for Graham but Robby was by that time concentrating on the middles.

I don't know if Fusari was rated above Graham when Robinson defended against him. What is clear is that Gavilan was better than either of them.

The question is moot anyway for this discussion, as both Larkin and Graham were white, unless someone wants to claim Robinson was ducking white welters while fighting white middles.

By the way, Larkin won a one-sided decision over Graham in 1947.

 

No whats funny is watching you try to move the goal post in order squirm your way out of another idiotic post. Recalls the time when you came on here talking about how Jack Johnson was in danger of losing to Flynn despite the fact that he had beaten the dog **** out of Flynn and the film of the entire fight is there for all to see. Guess you missed that before your post.

 

Its funny. I was listening to the radio broadcast today of Burley-Fernandez on the undercard of Robinson-Servo 1. Fernandez gave Burley some minor problems despite Burley having the fight well in hand and displaying all of his skill. How did the crowd respond? Boos. That pretty much sums up Burley's career. The guy was talented and could ***** and moan about not getting a decision and being ducked and everyone being scared of him but frankly he was box office poison that the fans didnt give two shits about.