How do Floyd's wins over ageing greats compare to Oscar's

tliang1000 · Aug 21, 2012

knockout artist said: ↑

In comparing the careers of two great fighters, I'm looking at the wins they hold over ageing greats and seeing what people think.

Floyd's win over Mosley - Shane was 38 years old, and has done little since. However, at the time Shane was coming of a devestating KO of Margarito, and was considered the man at WW. He was also ranked P4P number 3, and there are rumours that Pacquiao turned down a fight with Shane at this time. Floyd's performance was dominant, and besides the great punches Shane landed in round 2, Floyd was almost flawless.

Floyd's win over Oscar - At the time, Oscar was the WBC Champ and considered the man at JMW, was coming off a KO of Mayorga. People will however point out that at the time, Oscar was inactive, and did very little afterwards. In the fight though, I felt Oscar looked strong and sharp compared to how he looked against Forbes and Pacquiao. Oscar was clearly the bigger man, in a small ring, yet at times Floyd was walking him down. A good win for Floyd no doubt.

Floyd's win over Marquez - JMM was ranked P4P number 2 at the time, and a year earlier looked unlucky not to get the decision over Pacquiao. Floyd was coming off a 2 year layoff, and produced a spectacular performance, where he looked as good as ever, out-thinking, out-moving and out-boxing the great JMM to a near enough shutout. However, people will point out that JMM was 36 years old, and Floyd dragged him up to a weight people felt Marquez wasn't comfortable at. Clearly Marquez is not natural at 147. However, he turned in an excellent performance at the same weight 2 years later against Pacquaio, where many felt he was unlucky not to get the decision again.

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Oscar's win over Julio Cesar Chavez (1996) - Oscar wins the title from the legendary JCC. At the time, Chavez's record was 96-1-1. In an impressive performance, Oscar stops Chavez in the fourth round (first to ever stop Chavez) on a cut. However, as many will point out, Chavez was not in his prime at this point, and had been through many wars already by the time Oscar got to him. Nonetheless, a very impressive win for a young Oscar over a legendary warrior.

Oscar's win over Whitaker - Sweet pea was P4P ranked at the time, and in many's eyes was practically undefeated. Oscar in his first fight at 147 puts on an excellent boxing display against another legend, in a very close fight that many felt Whitaker won, and many felt Oscar won. That version of Whitaker, whilst he'd slowed down somewhat, was still very strong, and I personally think it's an impressive win for Oscar. As many will point out, Sweet Pea's best weight clearly was below 147, and he clearly was past his prime at that point. Furthermore, it was a very close fight many will have scored to Whitaker.

Oscar's win over Hector Camacho - Oscar pitches a near enough shutout in an impressive boxing display. Camacho at the time was undefeated in his last 21 fights, clearly coming in high on confidence. However, Camacho's prime was in the late 80's between 130-140, and prior to facing Oscar at WW, he was fighting at MW.

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I've tried to be as fair as possible in writing this up. Personally I give the edge to Oscar, because his win over Whitaker was impressive, and is in my opinion the best win out of all of those. What does everyone think?
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Oscar was bigger than Chavez and Pea.

knockout artist · Aug 21, 2012

PityTheFool said: ↑

I know this is real fantasy stuff given the size issue,but let's say Bernard has a limit on the night of say,168?
I actually think Floyd's more hesitant style at 154 would be well suited to fighting Bernard's style.Make no mistake,it'd be a stinker.Given Bernard's penchant for starting slow,if this was a ten rounder I think Floyd would at least make a fight of it because Bernard's never fought anyone who could throw his game off to the same extent Floyd would.
It's all a bit silly I know
Just came into my head with the comparisons on this thread mate.:good
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Floyd would know how to beat Bernard, but I can't look past the size difference. Hopkins kryptonite is fast two handed fighters, but Floyd will just be bullied. Though, DLH was competitive until the stoppage, so you may be right, Floyd could make it competitive. Floyd's footwork is amongst the best ever, and if he can prevent Hopkins from closing off the ring, and getting to him, then he could frustrate him and win rounds. And no worries, I love hypothetical match-ups :good

I've got one for you, SRL vs Hopkins at 160?

Mind Reader · Aug 21, 2012

knockout artist said: ↑

In comparing the careers of two great fighters, I'm looking at the wins they hold over ageing greats and seeing what people think.

Floyd's win over Mosley - Shane was 38 years old, and has done little since. However, at the time Shane was coming of a devestating KO of Margarito, and was considered the man at WW. He was also ranked P4P number 3, and there are rumours that Pacquiao turned down a fight with Shane at this time. Floyd's performance was dominant, and besides the great punches Shane landed in round 2, Floyd was almost flawless.

Floyd's win over Oscar - At the time, Oscar was the WBC Champ and considered the man at JMW, was coming off a KO of Mayorga. People will however point out that at the time, Oscar was inactive, and did very little afterwards. In the fight though, I felt Oscar looked strong and sharp compared to how he looked against Forbes and Pacquiao. Oscar was clearly the bigger man, in a small ring, yet at times Floyd was walking him down. A good win for Floyd no doubt.

Floyd's win over Marquez - JMM was ranked P4P number 2 at the time, and a year earlier looked unlucky not to get the decision over Pacquiao. Floyd was coming off a 2 year layoff, and produced a spectacular performance, where he looked as good as ever, out-thinking, out-moving and out-boxing the great JMM to a near enough shutout. However, people will point out that JMM was 36 years old, and Floyd dragged him up to a weight people felt Marquez wasn't comfortable at. Clearly Marquez is not natural at 147. However, he turned in an excellent performance at the same weight 2 years later against Pacquaio, where many felt he was unlucky not to get the decision again.

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Oscar's win over Julio Cesar Chavez (1996) - Oscar wins the title from the legendary JCC. At the time, Chavez's record was 96-1-1. In an impressive performance, Oscar stops Chavez in the fourth round (first to ever stop Chavez) on a cut. However, as many will point out, Chavez was not in his prime at this point, and had been through many wars already by the time Oscar got to him. Nonetheless, a very impressive win for a young Oscar over a legendary warrior.

Oscar's win over Whitaker - Sweet pea was P4P ranked at the time, and in many's eyes was practically undefeated. Oscar in his first fight at 147 puts on an excellent boxing display against another legend, in a very close fight that many felt Whitaker won, and many felt Oscar won. That version of Whitaker, whilst he'd slowed down somewhat, was still very strong, and I personally think it's an impressive win for Oscar. As many will point out, Sweet Pea's best weight clearly was below 147, and he clearly was past his prime at that point. Furthermore, it was a very close fight many will have scored to Whitaker.

Oscar's win over Hector Camacho - Oscar pitches a near enough shutout in an impressive boxing display. Camacho at the time was undefeated in his last 21 fights, clearly coming in high on confidence. However, Camacho's prime was in the late 80's between 130-140, and prior to facing Oscar at WW, he was fighting at MW.

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I've tried to be as fair as possible in writing this up. Personally I give the edge to Oscar, because his win over Whitaker was impressive, and is in my opinion the best win out of all of those. What does everyone think?
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Good read knockout artist.:good

I think it is rather close as you pointed out...

I also agree that the win over Whitaker was probably the best win of all those even though not all think it was a clear victory.

I was also impressed in piticular with the way Floyd took Mosley's best shots early, which he was certainly hurt... And was able to recover and totally impose is will on Mosley.. Floyd even looked like the bigger stronger man, moving forward into him... Something i never thought I would see...

Either way, I wouldn't argue with anyone giving the edge to Mayweather or Oscar here.

PityTheFool · Aug 21, 2012

knockout artist said: ↑

Floyd would know how to beat Bernard, but I can't look past the size difference. Hopkins kryptonite is fast two handed fighters, but Floyd will just be bullied. Though, DLH was competitive until the stoppage, so you may be right, Floyd could make it competitive. Floyd's footwork is amongst the best ever, and if he can prevent Hopkins from closing off the ring, and getting to him, then he could frustrate him and win rounds. And no worries, I love hypothetical match-ups :good

I've got one for you, SRL vs Hopkins at 160?
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I think Ray's accuracy with the lead right would make be hugely significant here.Again,if we're evening up the size we still have to factor in that Ray was a different beast away from 147 and slightly less effective.My worry would be that his best shots wouldn't have much effect on Bernard and although I think Ray builds up a healthy lead,I'd worry he'd be clinging for dear life in the latter stages.I think Bernard would have to stop hanging back and go on the front foot,which would mean being countered but without fear of being badly hurt.
I'd pick Ray to get one of the most controversial decisions ever,and Bernard being justifiably upset.
I'm a shameless nuthugger when it comes to Ray though,so objectivity is thin on the ground here.atsch

knockout artist · Aug 21, 2012

Mind Reader said: ↑

Good read knockout artist.:good

I think it is rather close as you pointed out...

I also agree that the win over Whitaker was probably the best win of all those even though not all think it was a clear victory.

I was also impressed in piticular with the way Floyd took Mosley's best shots early, which he was certainly hurt... And was able to recover and totally impose is will on Mosley.. Floyd even looked like the bigger stronger man, moving forward into him... Something i never thought I would see...

Either way, I wouldn't argue with anyone giving the edge to Mayweather or Oscar here.
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Hi MR, always great to have your input

I thought Pea was unlucky to have to decision go against him, but it was a close fight.

Mosley at the time was seen as dangerous, he was highly rated, which is why I think it's a good (but not great) win, even though Mosley did little after. I remember when Floyd said he would fight flat footed, and walk Mosley down in the face off, people dismissed it as trash talk, but he did, and he kept coming forward all night, even after tasting Mosley's power, he knew Mosley can't fight backing up.

Who do you think has the better wins resume overall, Oscar or Floyd? (Imagine if Oscar had Tito and Mosley on his!)

Who do you think would win between prime Floyd and prime Mosley? I go with Mayweather by decision

PityTheFool said: ↑

I think Ray's accuracy with the lead right would make be hugely significant here.Again,if we're evening up the size we still have to factor in that Ray was a different beast away from 147 and slightly less effective.My worry would be that his best shots wouldn't have much effect on Bernard and although I think Ray builds up a healthy lead,I'd worry he'd be clinging for dear life in the latter stages.I think Bernard would have to stop hanging back and go on the front foot,which would mean being countered but without fear of being badly hurt.
I'd pick Ray to get one of the most controversial decisions ever,and Bernard being justifiably upset.
I'm a shameless nuthugger when it comes to Ray though,so objectivity is thin on the ground here.atsch
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Thanks for the reply mate. I agree with pretty much all of that, Ray would certainly build up a lead with his flurries and speed, he would have to be on his toes all night to frustrate Hopkins. But Ray's stamina at 30, up at MW wasn't the same, and he would fade, Hopkins is renowned for being strong down the stretch, so Ray would have to grit his teeth to survive. If he gets the final bell (which I think he would), then he takes the close decision.

Ray is one of my favourite fighters! A lot of people think of him as a boxer and mover, but in so many of his fights Ray would plant his feet and he could really bang! Look at how many KO's he got. Such a complete fighter

Mind Reader · Aug 21, 2012

knockout artist said: ↑

Hi MR, always great to have your input

I thought Pea was unlucky to have to decision go against him, but it was a close fight.

Mosley at the time was seen as dangerous, he was highly rated, which is why I think it's a good (but not great) win, even though Mosley did little after. I remember when Floyd said he would fight flat footed, and walk Mosley down in the face off, people dismissed it as trash talk, but he did, and he kept coming forward all night, even after tasting Mosley's power, he knew Mosley can't fight backing up.

Who do you think has the better wins resume overall, Oscar or Floyd? (Imagine if Oscar had Tito and Mosley on his!)

Who do you think would win between prime Floyd and prime Mosley? I go with Mayweather by decision
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Always a good talk KO!

I have always said I would have Oscar as arguably the GOAT if he had won all of his fights... Think about that... Had he won every fight he has been in his resume would be ridiculously good. Mosley, Pac, Mayweather, Hopkins, Trinidad??? All prime!! on top of the older but ATG scalps he already has..

I think Floyd overall has the better resume, but I think Oscar tested himself against the absolute best.. But like you said, give Oscar Trinidad and Mosley 2 which he was arguably the winner , and it may be a different story... I just have a problem giving a fighter credit for a win, when the judges saw it different. even if I thought different.

I also think past prime Oscar did damn well against Mayweather himself... One of Floyd's toughest fights.

As for Mayweather vs. Prime Mosley? I used to think Mosley would knock him out... but I saw adjustments, and superior boxing in Floyd, I think he would beat Mosley anytime.. I think it would be closer for sure, possibly Shane could KO him if he gets lucky... 116-112 or so for Mayweather would be my bet.

turbotime · Aug 21, 2012

Well...

Whitaker and Chavez are greater than Oscar and Mosley

Camacho and Marquez though...that's tough. I don't put much stock into either wins.

kalunya5964 · Aug 21, 2012

knockout artist said: ↑

In comparing the careers of two great fighters, I'm looking at the wins they hold over ageing greats and seeing what people think.

Floyd's win over Mosley - Shane was 38 years old, and has done little since. However, at the time Shane was coming of a devestating KO of Margarito, and was considered the man at WW. He was also ranked P4P number 3, and there are rumours that Pacquiao turned down a fight with Shane at this time. Floyd's performance was dominant, and besides the great punches Shane landed in round 2, Floyd was almost flawless.

Floyd's win over Oscar - At the time, Oscar was the WBC Champ and considered the man at JMW, was coming off a KO of Mayorga. People will however point out that at the time, Oscar was inactive, and did very little afterwards. In the fight though, I felt Oscar looked strong and sharp compared to how he looked against Forbes and Pacquiao. Oscar was clearly the bigger man, in a small ring, yet at times Floyd was walking him down. A good win for Floyd no doubt.

Floyd's win over Marquez - JMM was ranked P4P number 2 at the time, and a year earlier looked unlucky not to get the decision over Pacquiao. Floyd was coming off a 2 year layoff, and produced a spectacular performance, where he looked as good as ever, out-thinking, out-moving and out-boxing the great JMM to a near enough shutout. However, people will point out that JMM was 36 years old, and Floyd dragged him up to a weight people felt Marquez wasn't comfortable at. Clearly Marquez is not natural at 147. However, he turned in an excellent performance at the same weight 2 years later against Pacquaio, where many felt he was unlucky not to get the decision again.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Oscar's win over Julio Cesar Chavez (1996) - Oscar wins the title from the legendary JCC. At the time, Chavez's record was 96-1-1. In an impressive performance, Oscar stops Chavez in the fourth round (first to ever stop Chavez) on a cut. However, as many will point out, Chavez was not in his prime at this point, and had been through many wars already by the time Oscar got to him. Nonetheless, a very impressive win for a young Oscar over a legendary warrior.

Oscar's win over Whitaker - Sweet pea was P4P ranked at the time, and in many's eyes was practically undefeated. Oscar in his first fight at 147 puts on an excellent boxing display against another legend, in a very close fight that many felt Whitaker won, and many felt Oscar won. That version of Whitaker, whilst he'd slowed down somewhat, was still very strong, and I personally think it's an impressive win for Oscar. As many will point out, Sweet Pea's best weight clearly was below 147, and he clearly was past his prime at that point. Furthermore, it was a very close fight many will have scored to Whitaker.

Oscar's win over Hector Camacho - Oscar pitches a near enough shutout in an impressive boxing display. Camacho at the time was undefeated in his last 21 fights, clearly coming in high on confidence. However, Camacho's prime was in the late 80's between 130-140, and prior to facing Oscar at WW, he was fighting at MW.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I've tried to be as fair as possible in writing this up. Personally I give the edge to Oscar, because his win over Whitaker was impressive, and is in my opinion the best win out of all of those. What does everyone think?
Click to expand...

I go for Oscar. Oscar's resume could stand by itself for greatness whereas Floyd's greatness depended on degrading the accomplishment of the midget whom he feared to face in the ring!:huh

knockout artist · Aug 30, 2012

Mind Reader said: ↑

Always a good talk KO!

I have always said I would have Oscar as arguably the GOAT if he had won all of his fights... Think about that... Had he won every fight he has been in his resume would be ridiculously good. Mosley, Pac, Mayweather, Hopkins, Trinidad??? All prime!! on top of the older but ATG scalps he already has..
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Sorry for the late reply MR

You're right about Oscar's resume, but winning all of those fights would be impossible! Nobody could go through that many weights, against that many great fighters and go undefeated!

Oscar deserves respect though for making the fights that fans wanted, I thought he got robbed against Trinidad. Mayweather and Pacquiao not fighting has been really bad for the sport.

I think Floyd overall has the better resume, but I think Oscar tested himself against the absolute best.. But like you said, give Oscar Trinidad and Mosley 2 which he was arguably the winner , and it may be a different story... I just have a problem giving a fighter credit for a win, when the judges saw it different. even if I thought different.
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I agree, I struggle to give credit when it's ruled against the fighter in question. As it stands, I agree, Floyd has the better resume, that '0' does wonders for him, imagine if the first Castillo fight had gone against him. I think the difference would be massive when talking about his legacy, if he was 42-1

I also think past prime Oscar did damn well against Mayweather himself... One of Floyd's toughest fights.
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He did, he showed how Floyd struggles against an elite jab, due to styles, Oscar-Floyd would always be close.

As for Mayweather vs. Prime Mosley? I used to think Mosley would knock him out... but I saw adjustments, and superior boxing in Floyd, I think he would beat Mosley anytime.. I think it would be closer for sure, possibly Shane could KO him if he gets lucky... 116-112 or so for Mayweather would be my bet.
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Mosley would struggle against a skilful boxer like Floyd, I too think Floyd wins the decision, Floyd is too smart for him. Though, Shane's first win over Oscar was a great win, I think that's arguably better than any win Floyd has, he fought a great fight that night.

Out of curiosity, if Martinez beats Chavez, if Floyd then fought and beat Martinez, how great a win would you consider it?

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