How do some people rank Louis over Ali?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by quintonjacksonfan, Oct 30, 2024 at 3:16 AM.



  1. Anubis

    Anubis Boxing Addict

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    Well, Louis had that comparable WW II hiatus. He stopped competing at 27 and came back at 32, whereas Ali stopped at 25 and came back at 28. Joe was older, but also had the longer layoff.
     
  2. Boxing_Fan101

    Boxing_Fan101 Undisputed Available bookgoodies.com/a/1068623705 Full Member

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    It’s not quite the same Joe was still fighting and training albeit against cans whereas Ali was fighting court battles to get his licence and resorting to bizarre exhibitions like the computerised fight with Marciano
     
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  3. Anubis

    Anubis Boxing Addict

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    Ali also let his weight balloon up to around 240 pounds for his summer pilgrimage to Africa after dethroning Liston, yet for Cooper II, he whipped himself back down to 201.

    He did no training for Marciano of course, and his gut was bigger than Rocky's was. Yes, Marciano had to ditch a lot of weight, but he didn't merely diet down from a life of free indulgence, he trained as if it could become a real contest with bad back and all. When he was killed, he was in his best physical condition since Moore.

    Following Manila, Ali admitted to Howard Cosell that he wasn't sure he could've beaten Marciano, citing how sore his arms were during the sparring and filming for Murray Woroner's fantasy bout, but JJW was sure, and he'd been in the ring twice with Louis and Rocky.

    Maybe Ali just was looking for an excuse to take a break after an ATG torrid 1966-early1967 campaign winning eight title bouts. It was obvious he wasn't going to get the big bucks he finally got for the FOTC, and wasn't greatly inspired after Terrell. For him, Folley was a good guy and contender long overdue for a title shot. Between him and Machen with Terrell for the vacant WBA title, everybody frozen out by Cus D'Amato's fracturing of the IBC monopoly had now gotten shots. He'd redeemed the Championship and gotten it out of mothballs. But boxing wouldn't truly revive until Kinshasa. (Frazier, like Marciano, simply couldn't do it with his style and arduous training, and Foreman was far from being able to defend successfully against all styles and situations. Still, George's first reign was inexcusably moribund. Upon being awarded Leon's stripped WBC Title, Norton expressed wanting to succeed Ali by "defending it every month and a half," but he was aging and never proved he could beat a top shelf slugger like Mercado, Lyle or Knoetze.)
     
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  4. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 Born Again Gadfly Full Member

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    Walcott and Charles are better wins IMO then Liston and Foreman, Frazier is a bit better then those guys though. Conn is a league better than all of Ali’s win as a boxer, as is Charles and Walcott. He beat an incredible line up of technical fighters, Schemlimg, Sharkey others I can’t remember it’s been a while.
     
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  5. META5

    META5 Active Member Full Member

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    Yet, I've qualified it that Ali has an impressive list of contenders defeated behind the legacy fights.

    I hear you but venture that I'm not being heard as I've said, subjectively for me, when their records and dominance as the man are so closely aligned, skillsets, H2H hypothetical assessments and everything else considered, legacy fights then becomes a legitimate discerning factor.

    Louis dominated more than Ali did as he held the championship for longer - his era was weaker and IMO lacked the calibre of contender that Ali faced and defeated as both champion( Liston through to exile) and contender himself during his 1972 - 1974 run.
     
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  6. Kid Bacon

    Kid Bacon All-Time-Fat Full Member

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    Yep.
    Closest match I can think about would be:
    Ali beats Patterson while Louis beats Schmelling.

    But there is nothing in Louis' resume comparable to Liston, Foreman and Frazier.
     
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  7. META5

    META5 Active Member Full Member

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    Walcott ranks lower than both Liston and Foreman - you could argue that he was more capable on the relative nights but he deffo ranks lower. Conn may be a better boxer than all of Ali's opponents in your opinion, but this doesn't tell us much - he was a 168 - 175lbs fighter - most lighter fighters are exponentially more skilled than their HW counterparts. Being more skilled and being over 30lbs lighter doesn't make you a more formidable fighter than the likes of Liston, Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Patterson, Quarry, Bonavena, Terrell etc.

    Louis lost to Charles and in the fight, Conn, whilst beat, highlighted aspects of Louis' game. Frazier is a considerably better HW than Walcott and Charles and I couldn't see Ali struggling with Conn in the same way that Louis did. Foreman, Tyson, Holyfield, Frazier, Liston, Marciano, Dempsey, Lewis, Bowe, both Klits - I think they all ragdoll him and get him out of there. Louis won afterall and I give him credit.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2024 at 8:16 PM
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  8. META5

    META5 Active Member Full Member

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    Happy to disagree - I understand your assertions but think it's extremely subjective.

    If I think basketball and Wilt Chamberlain - he absolutely dominated his era, where he was so clearly superior to everyone that you can only admire his numbers. If I look at Jordan or Kobe, as a better example, they also dominated their eras, but their eras were full of genuine threats and they lost and won, but what set then apart wasn't just their dominance but their ability to kill-switch in the 4th quarter. More flashy, underrated fundamentals, but legacy wise, their top wins and performances can't be denied.

    Louis was outstandingly great and I always venture himself as the pinnacle of technical punching, with extremely underrated boxing ability, and ATG jab, great off centre head placement, parrying, blocking, ability to punch devastatingly in all ranges and very quick handspeed, however, where I believe Ali to have superior handspeed and ability to beat styles and his record over other ATG/top 30 or 40 HWs, I personally rank him higher.

    It is 1a and 1b for me - odes to movie comparisons and whatnot are cute but don't resonate with me as I'm not that guy that just looks at a legacy fight.
     
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  9. Kid Bacon

    Kid Bacon All-Time-Fat Full Member

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    Kinda agree.

    IMO if we put in a box Norton, Quarry, Williams, Patterson, Shavers, etc. and we put in another box Schmelling, Conn, Baer, Galento, Walcott, etc. We get two quite similar sets. Thus Ali and Louis would be evenly matched.

    But again, It is still hard for me to see how Louis matches Ali's victories over Liston, Frazier and Foreman.
     
  10. Ney

    Ney Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I agree Liston ranks higher than Walcott all-time, but I put Louis’ victory over Walcott higher than Ali’s over Liston, which is what really counts IMO. Louis was markedly over the hill & Walcott was at the peak of his considerable powers. Contrasting, Liston was injured & at least somewhat past his best in age, while Ali I regard as right about on the edge of his prime when they first met. I also factor in Liston taking Ali lightly, vs Walcott, preparing for the fight of his life against a living legend & with the belt on the line.

    It’s a different story with Ali’s victory over Foreman, of course. That’s certainly superior to any single Louis success.
     
  11. Pedro_El_Chef

    Pedro_El_Chef Active Member Full Member

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    Schmeling is comparable to all the three guys you mentioned. Ex champ, didn't really get beat out of his title, rated for 10 years, atg right hand/ stamina/ speed, tremendous chin, beat the greatest h2h fighter, he is a great win for Louis.

    Dempsey lost 19/20 rounds against Tunney and got beat by Willie Meehan, Marciano was almost beat by a past it Walcott, Charles and then Lastarza, Liston couldn't knock out a single ranked mover at heavyweight, Lewis never faced a legit fast boxer, either did Bowe, Foreman lost to Young who was leagues below Conn, you just assume these guys have an easy time with Conn when chances are he out points them worse than he did the faster, well schooled Louis, who actually had multiple KO wins over fighters of Conn's style before fighting him, unlike the guys you mentioned who have 1 or zero such wins and against much lesser opponents.
    Louis' opposition gets massively underrated as always. Just because Joe beat them doesn't mean others would.
     
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  12. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster Upvoting Janitor and arguing with Seamus Full Member

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    Because he was more consistent than Ali, had the title reign for longer and was overall more dominant. Joe Louis still holds the record across all weight divisions for longest title reign ever at 12 years. In that time he had 26 title defenses.

    You cant compare H2H abilities of the people faced by fighters in their generation because then Lennox Lewis gets to be the greatest just due to being in peak of the steroid era. Which is stupid. Every fighter is judged by what they accomplished in their own generation.
     
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  13. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 Born Again Gadfly Full Member

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    Crossing wires a bit aren’t I? He never beat Charles lol - Walcott ranks wherever people want to rank him there is no canon list? H2H it’s incredibly likely JJW beats both those guys (Foreman and Liston) though IMO - well I think being extremely skilled and durable does make you formidable? I that fight also tells us Louis had the skills to hang with one of the greatest boxers of all time… Conn was the closest to beating the GOAT (IMO) so he can’t be that bad can he? Conn could outbox quite a few of those guys listed honestly… Foreman, Liston, Ernie and Bonavena wouldn’t even recognise him till Conn had his hands raised “That’s the guy from the stare off!” lol.
     
  14. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 Born Again Gadfly Full Member

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    I’d say Walcott was a better fighter then George Foreman so it can’t be “certain” this is all just opinions by us internet quarter backs.
     
  15. META5

    META5 Active Member Full Member

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    Better fighter overall but not better HW - I meant formidable as a HW. I have never heard anybody credibly argue Conn's prowess as an elite HW fighter - Archie Moore and Charles were both more seasoned and achieved as HW fighters than Billy.

    I don't take that one body of work against an underweight Louis, where he got knocked out over guys who spent a career at HW and did well.

    Foreman, Lewis, Bowe, Liston and both Kilts absolutely catch up to Conn eventually and drop the boom. Prime Tyson absolutely eats Conn alive. I'm not going to use Conn's ability as a SMW/LHW to elevate him to platforms he didn't achieve at HW to boost an argument.

    Conn did well and showed Louis doesn't like movement - he got KO'd. Marciano would punch his resistance out of him and a prime Demspey, not the shell that Tunney beat, would get him too. Even then, Tunney got dropped heavily by Dempsey - Conn is great, just not a great HW.

    JJW doesn't have the durability to take the power of a primed Foreman and/or Liston IMO. Both fighters catch him eventually.