How do you feel about Holyfield's legacy?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by catchwtboxing, May 17, 2024.


Where do you rate Holy?

  1. GOAT

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. 2-5

    11.4%
  3. 6-8

    22.7%
  4. 9-10

    29.5%
  5. 11-15

    20.5%
  6. Lower

    15.9%
  1. Kid Bacon

    Kid Bacon All-Time-Fat Full Member

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    Very good thread and discussion so far.

    I rank Holyfield fringe 10 with an asterisk attached.
    The deal breaker for me is his blatant use of PEDs.

    OK, everybody was using PEDs in the 90s. I got it.

    But there are light users, regular users, heavy users... and then, there is Holyroid.

    Thus, althought Holyfield is an ATG I don't place him in the upper level. Regardless how good as a boxer he was, his legacy carries a question mark in my eyes.
     
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  2. KO_King

    KO_King Horizontal Heavyweight Full Member

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    Even as a 90s boxing fan, I've always struggled somewhat with Holyfield as a top tier ATG. Yes, he has some very good individual wins. But, to me, following the sport at the time, he always lacked what I consider to be a key component of greatness, which is consistency. A good performance always seemed to be quickly followed by a bad one or even a loss.
    This is not to denigrate Evander. I think, on his day, he is capable of giving any ATG a tough night. But I would always struggle to back him to put on any sort of good run. I once watched a Hatman video which called him an 'occasional great ' and, more than anyone else, that pretty much sums up how I feel that about Holyfield.
     
  3. West of Hollywood

    West of Hollywood Active Member Full Member

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    PROS: immense discipline and mental toughness, combination punching, resiliency, courage, self-belief
    CONS: steroids and dirty tactics
     
  4. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    The number one issue is the PED's ... we know he was a great fighter at cruiser. We know his chin was insane. That said the PEDs are huge but how many other in that era used them as well ? They all deny to but who is to be trusted ?
     
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  5. Pat M

    Pat M Well-Known Member Full Member

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    If you believe that Evander Holyfield is one of the few boxers to use steroids/PEDs and he was fighting drug free opponents he doesn't deserve credit for any of the "pros" you mentioned in your post. All of the "pros" would be enhanced by steroid/PED use. The "courage, self belief, mental toughness, resiliency" would all be by-products of steroid/PED use, just as "combination punching."

    I think EH is one of the most fundamentally sound, best technical boxers that has ever fought at heavyweight. But if I thought he was the only user of steroids/PEDs and was competing against steroid/PED free opponents I would ignore his accomplishments. I suspect that most top fighers/heavyweights have been using steroids/PEDs since the 70s and some in the 60s so I do give him credit for his skills because I assume his opponents were also "enhanced."
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2024
  6. slash

    slash Boxing Addict Full Member

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    They were.
     
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  7. PernellSweetPea

    PernellSweetPea Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I see your point. I just think moving up he really did well considering that, if you compare Michael Moorer who moved up to Evander. And Bert Cooper, who never could hang with the big heavyweights.
     
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  8. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Agreed and that was my point, whilst I rank Holyfield lower at HW than most, as a natural CW, his exploits at HW do his p4p standing a lot of good (at least they do if you don't factor possible/likely PEDs into your rankings.
     
  9. PernellSweetPea

    PernellSweetPea Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I agree it is very complicated. And I see you point. Should we give points to guys who move up and rank them higher with the same record as someone who did not move up? Probably so. Holyfield's Cruiserweight career was good but I am not sure what that earns him.
     
  10. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I keep it simple.

    Size is irrelevant in my HW rankings. Performances in other weight divisions are irrelevant too. I rank Holyfield lower at HW than most.

    Size is material to p4p rankings. Holyfields work at HW speaks for him in a p4p sense given his relative size, on top of his CW record.
     
  11. SonnyListon>

    SonnyListon> #1 Sonny Liston fan Full Member

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    May 14, 2024
    evan fields is not a good boxer, he racked up wins via cheating against washed boxers. Its embarrassing 3 people voted 2-5. I dont like the guy and think hes unskilled.
     
  12. dmt

    dmt Hardest hitting hw ever Full Member

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    Below Ali, Louis, Holmes, Foreman, and Liston.

    Close between him and Lewis because i think the best Holy beats the best Lewis. In terms of rating, i rank Lewis slightly higher.

    I have him #7.

    Anything between #7-#12 would be reasonable.
     
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  13. slash

    slash Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Underrated . That's his legacy.
     
  14. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    He has a strong case for ranking on the fringes of the heavyweight top ten. I selected the 9-10 option on the polls but I can see arguments for having him a little lower or a little higher. But having him in the top 3 or below 15 is a bit extreme in my opinion
     
  15. Jakub79

    Jakub79 Active Member Full Member

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    I gave it 9-10, maybe it should be higher, I have no problem with that. Certainly not top 5 or top 3, but that's what The Ring estimated before the fights with Lewis.

    Evaluating Holy is not easy. in one sentence his victories over Bowe, Foreman, Dokes, Holmes, Tyson, Moorer, Quavi, Douglas are mentioned, forgetting that several of them were definitely on the other side of the river, in several others Holy's form was not brilliant and it was not a great ring performance victories, that against Bowe he was 1-2 and against Moorer 1-1, that in several fights near his prime he did not look like someone close to ATG - Stewart, Cooper, Bean. Despite everything, his achievements are absolutely impressive but... his greatest sporting success, in my opinion, is winning against Bowe in 1993 - what would have happened if Holy had been much better than he was and dominated his opponent as Tyson usually did in the 1980s? if he had won against Bowe in even better style than he did in 1993? if he was an even better Holyfield? How would we then treat this victory historically? or as something bigger than Tyson's win over Biggs in 1987? Before the fight with Holy, Bowe was a titled amateur whose greatest success in professional rings was a controversial victory over Tony Tubbs, older, fatter and more broken than when he fought Tyson and lost in the 2nd round.
    If he won the first fight with Moorer, would we mention Moorer or would we just treat it as a victory over some LHW? Who did Michael beat in HW apart from Holy? Evander in some sense created Moorer in HW but apart from that Michael didn't achieve anything great but the victory over him is considered ATG.
    Holy's best media victory was Tyson 1996 - hats off. But when Tyson went to Holy, he had fought 20 minutes in 5 years, 4 weak fights that did not go beyond the 3rd round and the only real one was the one lasting a minute with a cryptobum named McNelley. Tyson was full of rust and cockiness. It was on sale.
    Holy was great, he was brave, he was trained, he had great achievements but his CV is better than he was.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2024
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