How do you feel about Roy jones?

****ing ******s trying to claim rjj was looking for hw fights. He chose Ruiz for one specific reason. He knew that if he played his card right, Ruiz wouldn't have the power or skill to dent that egg chin.

It is high class eggshell. The Tarver KO. He was buzzed like he had hit 1000 volts against Danny Green. Ok the argument about it being a temple shot, but the guy has no beard. He took the easy path his whole career to avoid the possibility of getting dropped. Now in hindsight, maybe he should have stepped up, as I don't doubt for a second that he might have had the ability to beat thkse guys. Unfortunately we will never know and you can't assume he would have won.

 

out of these european fighters you mentioned, which ones raised their US profile to make the fight happen?

my mouth drops that people still say this, when you just have to look at amir khan and ricky hatton to see how their international careers flourished once they went to the US and, wait for it, made their career defining fights happen.

its not the job of the best fighters in the world to accept fights from supposed challengers who have no international exposure and haven't taken the same risks they have to reach the top.

when people talk about who jones 'should have fought', they are pretty much all gifted Europeans who ran their careers the way guys like felix sturm and ricky burns do today - away from the US spotlight so they don't have to face the best in their division, and with 'a belt' that guarantees they can make good money taking less risks

 

Jackson said the fight was offered to Jones when he was still trained and managed by his father. In the article I posted it says that King offered him that fight after he had split with his dad. You are confusing two SEPERATE offers.

Keeping Up With Julian Jackson
Punched too hard =Too high risk

I made that point at the start. The article referred to the fight being offered to Jones after he had seperated with his father

How was the window small?

There was over a year to make that fight. The reason why Jones only defended his belt once was because he felt he wasn't getting paid enough to defend his belt. Hence all those above the weight non title bouts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU20t7Ej0NA
Go to 35:02
"Jones believes that the money is not there for championship level bouts"
"His turning down offers of 500k because he wants 1m"

Jones was not going to get 1m for a fight. It's the reason why his mw resume looks the way it does. Look at all of the guys he missed:
Collins, McClellan, Jackson, R.Johnson, Jackson

Jones priced himself out of fights AFTER he split with his dad, so I don't understand why you keep bringing up his time managed by his father

Source?

He said he refused to defend his belt because he believed the money was not there to defend it (see link above)

If you are refusing to defend your belt then it makes no sense to make 160 lbs for a non title fight. Jones was fighting at his fight night weight which for a mw would of been in the 166-172 lbs region.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6XsC0-2uAQ
Go to 38:15

He was just fighting at his fight night weight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU20t7Ej0NA
Go to 11:32

That's just your opinion.

You are ignoring the fact that:

-He said he had no problem making the mw limit
-He refused to defend his mw belt because he did not like the money
-Mw fighters rehydrate up to 166-172 lbs. He was just fighting at his fight night weight for those non title bouts.

 

It was worth more because McCallum was done as a world class fighter. He was around 40 yrs old and 1-1 in his last 2 fights

The wbc interim belt was not on the line when talks for Jones-McCallum began it was introduced later because HBO thought a belt might make the fight more enticing to the boxing public.

The fact is Jones did not defend his 168 lb belt against one meaningfull opponent, much to HBO's dismay

Hill's claim to fame is that he has a lot of title defenses against c-b level competition.
He tended to come up short when faced with competition above b level. He lost to a waay over the hill ww.

Hill was past prime and coming off a decisive loss when Jones faced him. The day before the fight Jones insisted that the weigh must be moved forward to give Hill less time to rehydrate.
How is that a good win?

No case can be made for McCallum being a note worthy win. McCallum was around 40 and would go 1-3 in his last 4 fights

Griffin? Decent, but his lack of size and durability stopped him from being a top contender at lhw.

Jones-McCallum `Title' Bout Doesn't Help This Sport's Sorry Situation

As I said before the belt was introduced later, at HBO's request.

 

Steve Collins
Notable wins: Eubank x 2
Notable losses: McCallum, R.Johnson
Debateable losses: Kalumbay


Hill
Notable wins: Maske
Notable losses: D.M, Jones, Hearns(way past prime)

Collins-Hill:
Best wins: Collins
The only opponent Hill ever beat worth mentioning was Maske who, wasn't that good. Tiozzi was nothing special either his best wins are (over the hill) McCallum and (near shot) D.M
Consistency: Collins
None of Collins losses hurt him seeing as he lost competitive fights to world class fighters. Hill on the other hand was stopped in 3 rounds by Jones and lost to a waay over the hill former ww
Reaction to adversity: same

Jones did not fight Hill in his prime either. He fought a past prime Hill who was coming of a loss and Jones would threaten to cancel the fight unless the weigh in got moved forward so Hill could not rehydrate himself

Collins > The version of Hill Jones fought

Griffin
Notable wins: Toney I, Jones
Debateable wins: Toney II
Notable losses: Jones, D.M, Harding, Hoye, Gonzalez, G.Johnson, Tarver

Collins-Griffin
Best wins:Griffin
The Jones win gives Griffin the edge here. Although he did not prove he was the better fighter in that fight.
Consistency: Collins by a landslide
Griffin has a lot of really bad losses: ko losses. losses to journeymen. one sided losses
Reaction to adversity: Collins
I believe Griffin dived in that Jones I fight

Collins > Griffin

Reggie Johnson

Not really fair to compare resumes with Reggie having so many debatable losses. His resume does not really reflect how good he was as a fighter

Anyway, When Collins and Reggie fought in their primes Johnson ecked out a close ud decision. Personally I thought he won by a 7-5 type decision. Either way they were close to the same level. Jones never faced that version of Reggie. The Reggie he faced was past prime due to that forced two year lay off from the ring. Prime Collins was better than that version of Reggie who really did nothing much at lhw. He was basically on the same level as lhw Nunn

Collins > past prime Reggie

 

He ignored Collins and while fighting the likes of Vinny Paz, Sosa and Eric Lucas. That should tell you right there that he wasn't interested in fighting the best guys around. He even admits that:

Boxing's Mantle--What Is Roy Jones' Legacy?

The fact that Collins could not get a fight highlights just how difficult it was to get a fight with Jones, despite Jones's claims to the contrary

And what is your opinion based on?

Do you really think it is just a coincidence that guys like Nunn, Liles and Guthrie could not get fights? That Tarver had such a hard time getting a fight?

What's your source for that?

He did not start talking about Douglas until AFTER he vacated the wbc belt
He was ordered by the WBC to fight Nunn after Griffin II. He would even tell Nunn that he had a shot coming

Jones Finishes Griffin

Jones's lowball offer would get rejected which forced the fight to go to purse bids. The Goosens would win with a bid of 2.4m

Jones would then vacate his belt saying that Nunn did not deserve a purse:

The Cyber Boxing Zone Newswire

Seth Abraham(1998)

(link dead)

He refused the fight out right saying that he did not want guys like Guthrie (and Nunn) to make any money

BOXING; Jones Fights His Own Way: Not Very Often

 

That's not what happened and what is your source for this?

No

He bypassed Jirov to fight Woods even though HBO were offering something like 5.5m for the Jirov fight.

There's No Stopping Roy Jones

HBo would plead with him not to fight Woods, but Jones would say he had to fight Woods, he is my mandatory.

Clinton Woods? Jones should breeze yet again

 

What evidence?

Just because had talks with them does not mean he was actually going to go through with it.

Hopkins:
Hopkins had talks with Jones in 2002 and 2004 both times the talks would break down over Hopkins purse demands. He wanted 10m.

Following your reasoning Hopkins was dead serious about making the fight, because he entered into talks.

Collins(99):
Jones and Collins would have talks after the Frazier fight, where Collins was told he would get none of the HBO money

Split in Jones camp sours Collins' hopes

Collins really should of walked after being told he wasn't going to get any of the HBO money and how many times has Jones entered into talks with the sole intention of keeping the HBO licensing fee to himself? Collins pushed ahead anyway just for Jones to go and fight Reggie Johnson instead

Following your reasoning Jones was dead serious about making the fight, because he entered into talks.


You cannot over look Jones's completely unrealistic purse demands, which would have killed any talks for potential fights

Jones' plan to stay heavy: Fill his pockets with cash

David vs. Goliath

Aussiebox featured fighter Roy Jones Junior

BOXING; Jones Announces His Price For a Matchup With Tyson '

How could Lewis (or Tyson) seriously negotiate with someone who is demanding 100m? There is no way the talks could of progressed to the contract stage with Jones insisting on 100m.
He is saying he wants the fight while at the same time introducing hurdles which cannot be overcome.

 

Jones had already refused to fight Nunn at smw, late 95. Saying that they(HBO) were not paying enough to fight someone like Nunn.
http://news.google.ie/newspapers?id...=5461,8093720&dq=roy+jones+michael+nunn&hl=en
(If Jones saw Nunn as a high risk fight just imagine what he would of thought of Liles)

Jones had been calling for Jones since at least mid 95. Nunn said himself it was his last chance to get a big fight.

All of those Rudy Nix type fights were just keep busy fights, Dan Goossen could of easily entered into talks with Jones, while Nunn got ready for a fight with Nix.

McCallum lost his wbc lhw belt to Tiozzi. After that loss he would of been moved down the wbc rankings. As a guess let's say he was around no 5 when he made a fight with Jones who would of had no ranking at lhw.

No case can be made for a fight under those circumstances being worthy of any belt

In order to sell the fight HBO would ask the WBC to make a belt available.
The WBC, which never misses a chance to charge sanctioning fees, would make the bout for the Interim belt. Jones would win the belt and become the interim champion which meant that he jumped ahead of all the fighters ranked ahead of him to be the no 1 challenger for the full wbc belt. Tiozzi would vacate the belt to fight at cw and the belt was then given to Jones.

He was given the belt

Jones of course would refuse to fight his first mandatory and get Graciano stripped of the belt. He never had any claim to that belt after that. The wbc-Graciano court ruling would declare Jones time as the wbc champion from 98-2000 null and void

LEWIS IGNORES DEADLINE

 

It has been a good read Zod.:good

How do you feel about Roy Jones?

 

Zod,

Wow!

You've gone on a rampage ! Ha!

You'll have to leave it with me mate, good stuff!

I'll try and respond over the weekend, but it may be next week now.

Have a good weekend mate.

 

general zod,

No problem.

Big Roy stopped the fight from happening earlier on, and then when the opportunity came around again Roy turned King down. I've finally got the Dark Trade back and have just started reading it. Thanks for introducing me to it. I'm sure you're aware that King tried to sign Roy and offered him $250,000 to fight Jackson, plus extra for training expenses etc. But when Roy found out that King was going to take $150,000 from it, Roy and the Levin's agreed to go with Arum instead.

A year isn't along time, and Gerald fought Jackson. Roy was been guided by Arum towards the IBF. When Roy had signed with Arum, he'd fought nobody apart from Jorge Castro.

I know what was said during the Chirino fights, and I've seen the post fight interview after Malinga many times.

But he had issues with the weight, and the money aspect of things was not solely why he missed all of those guys.

Just go and look at Roy's resume, and look into why he split from his Father. When guys like Toney, Nunn, Reggie Johnson etc were all fighting each other, Levin was putting on small hall shows in Florida for peanuts, and Roy was fighting the Lester Yardbrough's and Kevin Daigle's of the world. Roy started wanting $1m per fight, after he'd beaten Hopkins and was the champ. He didn't ask for that (to my knowledge) before he beat Hopkins, because he simply wasn't in a position to have been asking for that. Roy got his recognition and respect late. He was 24 when he fought Hopkins.

He never priced himself out of fights with the guys you've mentioned while he was still with Big Roy.

Because you're claiming that he missed the guys you've mentioned, because he was asking for too much. But again, he never really had a chance of fighting those guys before he split with his Dad and signed with Arum late in 92.

I'll try and find you one. He said in the build up to the Hopkins rematch in 2010, that he was nearly 180 for their first fight.

In 1998, Bernard Hopkins fought Simon Brown and Roy worked as an analyst for HBO. He said that he used to weigh up to 175 on fight night, when he weighed in at 160. It's on YouTube.

Yes, but the longer he stayed at 160, the harder it was for him to make weight. There's no way he could have stayed at 160 for a sustained period after he'd won the belt, even if the money was right for him. He was 24 going on 25.

I've read that he found it very hard to make 160, before he moved up to fight Toney.

I wasn't referring to his fight night weight. I was referring to the weigh in. He actually weighed in at 166.

Larry Merchant said "Are you saying you don't have real difficulty in making the weight?"

Roy said "Right"

So at that point in time, he may not have done. But by the time he'd fought Tate, it had become more difficult.

Roy was a huge MW, and again, realistically he couldn't have fought there for much longer than he did.

 

general zod,

It may have been worth more to you as a fan, but it wasn't to Roy.

Bernard fought in a weight division below. There was no big money, no title, and Roy had beaten him whilst injured just three years previously. Fighting McCallum was a stepping stone to a new challenge at 175.

It doesn't really make a difference does it? Roy was taking a new challenge in a new weight class. It was obvious that after he'd fought Mike, he'd have targeted the best in the division. You seem to be comparing Hopkins to McCallum, instead of looking at the bigger picture. Fighting at 175 was a more attractive proposition than rematching a MW. It's as simple as that.

That's right, but as we know there were other factors involved. I showed you a link after Roy fought Vinny Paz, where Fred Levin said he wasn't turning Roy over to King for Benn and Liles fights, because he knew King wanted future options. On you're own great thread, you yourself have said that you don't think Roy ducked Benn, and both Roy and Greg Fritz claim that King wanted options. Roy wasn't just content to fight bums at 168. History as proven that. Because he only had 6 fights at the weight. When he couldn't deal with King, he moved up. He could have just stayed there and continued to fight B-C class opposition, but he didn't.

Also, how could he have defended his belt against Hopkins in 96, and why would HBO have been happy about that, if he'd have taken the fight?

You make it sound as though Tommy was still a WW when he lost to him. Hill beat some decent fighters in Tiozzo, Maske and Del Valle.

We've already discussed this. Roy was out completely out of order. But they weighed in on the Friday evening instead of the afternoon. I don't think it hampered Hill that much, and it was at a catchweight. Yes he was past prime, but he certainly wasn't shot. Just because he lost to DM on a decision doesn't mean he was finished. He was crushed by a 4th round body shot. How can it not be a very good/great win? Roy was the only guy to ever knock him out, and Virgil went up and fought at CW past his best. It was very impressive.

I agree entirely. It wasn't in anyway a good win. But it was a stepping stone to a new division, which was Roy's 4th, at 27 years of age.

I agree, but he was more than decent, and nobody iced him like Roy did.

Fair enough. But again, the point is, it was a gateway to a new division, and that was more attractive than fighting a MW who he'd already beaten.

 

I respect your opinion, but I don't think that Collins was that great. I'm sure I've heard you talk of Collins being a better fighter when he was younger in the early 90's. If it wasn't you, I apologise, but I myself agree with that opinion.

I believe he was quicker with very good skills when he was with Freddie Roach. But when he was older, he became more one dimensional, and just relied more on his toughness.

His claim to fame in my opinion, was beating faded versions of Benn and Eubank. We both agree that Benn faded pretty quickly after he'd fought Gerald, and in my opinion, Eubank was a very good fighter but was never the same after Watson. Although he had beaten Roch in Germany, and I have to respect Collins's win, especially when he psyched him out.

But I don't really see how Collins was any better than Hill who was at a higher weight.

Reggie was past his best when he fought Roy, but he was still decent, and he gave a good account of himself against Tarver three years later.

I just don't see how it's such a big deal that Roy swerved him. I believe that Roy fought better fighters, and he looked to fight better fighters than Collins.

He'd have fought Hopkins again in 2002, if Hop hadn't have originally demanded more of the purse.

Hopkins was better than Collins.

We know Roy wanted Holy, who wasn't interested, and we know from your links that Roy was interested in a DM fight as long as it was in the U.S.

DM and Holy would have been better opponents.

Unfortunately those fights didn't come off, but we know that Roy fought Ruiz at HW at 34.

Ruiz at HW was a tougher fight for Roy at 34, than what Collins would have been at MW when he was 27.

If Roy had avoided him, and then fought nothing but bums for the rest of his career, then it would be different.

But history has shown us that Roy dismissed Collins to pursue better fighters at higher weights.

 

Collins was rubbish. He did good against his domestic foes who were basically finished .

Roy Jones admittedly would've toyed with him like he did Clinton Woods