How do you feel about Roy jones?

general zod,

It's easy for you to say that, but he'd moved up and fought Toney who was considered one of the best fighters on the planet at the time. If he wasn't interested in fighting the best, he'd never have took that fight. Once again, we know that Roy and Levin had a hard time dealing with King, and he was interested in a Benn fight. We then know that he moved up in weight twice, and fought Reggie, Griffin, Del Valle, Hill, Tarver and Ruiz, and he would have fought Holyfield, DM and a Hopkins rematch under different circumstances. So he wasn't as reluctant as what people make out.

Roy had beaten Toney who was better than Collins for the IBF. He was then open to fighting Benn for the WBC. Where was Collins? He'd got a WBO belt than nobody cared about. After Roy couldn't negotiate with King, he moved up for a new challenge and Collins got left behind. What would Roy have gotten from a Collins fight? A fight with a hell of a tough fighter, for little money and no title. Now if Collins had have held a major title at 168 or 175, then I honestly believe that Roy had've taken the fight.

Roy would have needed to fight a 100 times to fight everyone who he supposedly avoided. What's the big deal in the Guthrie fight not being made? Tarver lost against Harding in his eliminator. Roy had to fight the winner of that fight. Tarver lost, but Roy still ended up fighting him.

If Roy had've fought Nunn, Guthrie and Collins, but not Tarver and Hill etc, people like yourself would probably be asking how come he never fought those guys. Moving up and fighting James Toney proves that he wasn't content to feast on bums.

You have said in your other post, that Holyfield rejected the proposal of a fight with Roy, BEFORE Roy had fought Griffin in the rematch. Here you are saying that Nunn was made mandatory AFTER the Griffin rematch. So what does that tell us? That tells us that Roy had intentions of fighting at HW before Nunn was made mandatory. So, one of two things happened.

1. Roy vacated his belt because he wanted to fight someone at HW, even though Holyfield wasn't interested.

2. Roy vacated his belt, for the specific reason of dodging Michael Nunn.

If you believe it was 2, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

But I don't think that he vacated the belt, and then agreed to fight Douglas, just so he could get out of fighting a 35 year old Nunn. I don't think he would have gone to those lengths.

I don't see the big issue with Roy not fighting Guthrie.

He was knocked out by Reggie Johnson in 98, and then by Nunn in 99, who at that point was 36.

It's not as though Roy refused to fight southpaws.

He fought Reggie Johnson, Lou Del Valle, Eric Harding and Antonio Tarver x 3.

I don't think it's a glaring omission from his resume.

 

general zod,

I scanned through some old links a few days ago. Apparently Murad scheduled a press conference, but Roch no showed, and Murad cancelled the fight. But although Roch had missed the press conference, apparently he was in training and wanted the fight. That's what I'd read, and that Kerry Davis of HBO said that Roy had been due to fight Roch twice before, but Roch hadn't been ready. I also read that his court case against the WBC took place in Jan of 2000. I've heard guys on here in the past, suggest that Roch was drinking heavily at the time, and wasn't fit to fight. So I'd love to read your thoughts on this. If you want the links, I'll have a look. I'm sure I'll be able to find them again. I know that HBO wanted Roy to fight Telesco, and Telesco had been bad mouthing Roy, and there was interest in a fight between them.

He still bypassed Jirov to fight Ruiz, which is what I'd originally said.

According to your link, Woods took Roy to court and he would only have got an extra $500,000 to fight Jirov.

So what do you mean "even though HBO were offering him $5.5m"? What did you expect him to do?

He wasn't going to fight Jirov for that, if he was getting $5m to fight Woods.

But we know that he fought Ruiz afterwards for big money.

So he bypassed CW to fight at HW.

 

general zod,

You're entitled to your opinion. I think he would have gone through with them.

I don't even know if Hopkins had serious talks with Roy in 2002. I don't even know if they got that far, because Hopkins wouldn't back down from wanting 50-50.

Are you going to keep using this as some sort of evidence that Roy wasn't serious about Lewis and Tyson?

Collins was pushed aside for a bigger fight against Reggie to unify at 175.

Fighters can obviously enter talks for different reasons. They can go into talks when they've got other options, just to listen what's on offer, or they can go into talks wanting that fight and nothing else.

Was he literally demanding $100m or no fight? I don't think so. He just wanted a huge amount of money. Lennox said "Pay me $100m and I'll return" in 2008. Was he speaking literally? Would he have turned down $90m for example? A fight against Tyson or Lewis would probably have broke the records that Oscar and Floyd set in 2007. What did Oscar make for that? Around $50m according to reports.

Like I've said previously, why would Lewis's team have even bothered talking to Murad, if Roy was literally demanding $100m or no fight? Why would Mike have met Roy in Miami and discussed details of a proposed fight for the following year? Why would Lennox have even bothered speaking to Roy? There'd have been no point.

Lennox retired in 2004, and he said that he was no longer motivated to fight, and he couldn't give 100%.

I've never heard or read anything, where Lennox has stated that he wanted the fight, but Roy priced himself out by asking for a ridiculous amount etc.

 

general zod,

In that link Roy said "Pay me and I'll perform. They wanted me to fight Michael Nunn, but they didn't want to pay me enough to fight Michael Nunn."

So how did Roy REFUSE to fight him?

You originally said that Roy could have fought Nunn after he'd been given the belt against Griffin, but he chose not too. But that wasn't the case, because as discussed previously, Nunn had already got a fight lined up before Roy had even fought McCallum.

Again, Nunn was in camp before Roy had even fought McCallum. Nunn fought on Jan 17th, and Roy fought McCallum on the 22nd of Nov.

I agree with everything you've said. All I meant was, he still had to beat McCallum first. We both know that Mike was way past his best that night, but he still wasn't just an easy push over.

As discussed, Roy planned to go up to HW. But when the Buster Douglas fight didn't happen, he returned back to 175 and asked then for his WBC belt back. What the WBC did, was absolutely disgusting! I'm glad Roch sued them. I can't believe that they just handed Roy the belt back, after they'd set up the Nunn - Roch fight to fight for the vacant title. It was outrageous! But it's harsh to say that Roy got him stripped. It was the WBC who were at fault. They should have told Roy where to go.

As discussed, it proves that Roy had serious intentions of fighting up at HW before vacating his 175 belt.

 

He is a prime example of what happens when a phenomenally gifted athlete, with the backing of the best pharmacological company in the PED industry, chooses boxing as his sport.

He lacked fundamentals but more than made up for them with his incredible speed and punching power. I think that h2h he could beat any super middleweight on the planet, past, present or future. I also think that he screwed himself over, first by avoiding dangerous opposition in his prime, and then by suddenly fighting dangerous opposition once he slowed down and his fundamental flaws become glaringly obvious.

 

I love how it is OK for Roy to demand fair money to fight but not his opponents. :rofl

What a scared Glass Jawed Joke he was. He was deathly scared of getting that Glass Jaw shattered. Too bad it happened anyway and in devastating and brutal fashion.

 

In the business of boxing, the best fighter in the world holds all the cards.. If you don't like it, get ****ed.... I am not saying it is fair, but that is the way the business works..

I feel you are bashing the sport as a whole, that you claim a " scared glass jawed joke" can gain that kind of recognition and respect from fans, trainers, and other great fighters through the success he had, and the amazing skill set he showed, that is only even comparable to very few from the past.


I would have loved it if Roy's attitude was more open to fighting whoever whenever. But when I look from his perspective, I see that he was business first, and that is smart..

He did showcase his skills against many good fighters, across many weights.. I don't think any "joke" can do that in a sport as tough and ruthless as boxing.

 

he's become a little more humble since he's had his brains scrambled several times in the past 4 years or so.

 

I was going to forget about this thread, but I decided to wrap it for those that followed it

Thanks

A talented fighter who really wasn't that interested in fighting the best guys out there, similiar to Calzaghe

Seth Abraham (former president of HBO)

 

Stubborn Jones Still Believes

 

Loudon

1: This is my last post in this thread.
2: This is the last time I will debate with you about Jones


Jackson

source
The Dark Trade p154

Just like I am aware that Levin is lying


Problem 1:
Jones's version of events is at complete odds with it

Explanation 1:

Roy Jones Jr. - 05.24.93 - SI Vault

Explanation 2:

BOXING; Jones Ducks King's Delivery and Lands His Punches - New York Times

So Jones has given TWO conflicting accounts of what happened.

 

Problem 2:
Levin has changed his story

When Levin first spoke about the Jackson fight he made it clear that the Showtime offer and the Jackson offer were two seperate offers and he made no mention of King taking 150k, saying instead that the deal fell apart because Showtime changed the terms of the deal

BOXING: NOTEBOOK; On a Bumpy Road to Big Money

This version of events is at complete odds with the account he would later give in the Dark Trade.
Levin is lying

 

McClellan

This is just you opinion. What evidence have you provided to prove it? The answer is none. The only opinions that should be used in debates are opinions based on tangible evidence. You cannot just keep passing your opinions off like it's some kind of fact.

Now I know you don't know anything the history between Jones and Gerald because:

1: You have not posted anything here that shows any knowledge of their history
2: You admitted in another thread that you didn't know why those guys never fought

You cannot debate with me about something you know nothing about.

I made the specific point of talking about 93-94 when they were both mw champions, so why are you going on about Gerald fighting Jackson for the wbc belt? It has NOTHING to do with this debate

Your making this stuff up.

1: He was not guided to the IBF by Arum. He was already ranked no 2 by the IBF, WBC and WBA when he signed with Arum

BOXING; Jones Ducks King's Delivery and Lands His Punches - New York Times

The reason Jones got his shot when he did was because Toney would vacate the belt to move up to smw, leaving Hopkins(ranked no 1) and Jones (ranked no 2) to fight for the vacate title. It had nothing to do with Arum guiding him.

(same link as above)

 

If that's true then it only makes matters worse, because it means you have made a point of ignoring any fact you don't like

And yet you still have not provided one single bit of proof to prove this.

???????????

None of the big names at mw around that time were getting 1m. Guys like Benn, Toney and Eubank where getting nowhere near that amount for high risk fights. so there was no chance that a guy like Jones, with such a small fan base, was in a position to demand such an amount. Toney would not get 1m until he fought Barkley, while Benn would not get it until he fought Eubank II.

The fact that Jones beat Hopkins doesn't mean anything. It's your fan base/attractiveness of the fights that determines how much you get. Do you really think HBO subscribers were in a rush to watch him after that borefest with Hopkins?

I made the point from the start that he was no longer with his father during this time period. So I am going to just ignore all of your references to his father from this point onwards.


He said he wanted 1m when he was the mw champion

During the time he was the mw champion he shared the division with: Collins, John David Jackson, McClellan, Jackson(past prime), Kalambay(past prime). R.Johnson

 

Is that why he said he was comfortable making mw during the post fight interview?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAtohQ6Z0ms
Go to 59:27

He never said that. He wasn't even 180 lbs come fight night at lhw

Reggie Johnson
Jones weighed in during the unofficial weigh in at 182 lbs. He would of been fully clothed at that point so we can safely take off 4lbs. Putting him around 178lbs

Tarver II
Jones weighed in during the unofficial weigh in at 180 lbs. Minus 4 lbs for clothes that puts his weight around the 176 lbs mark

1: There is no way that Jones could of weighed 180 lbs against Hopkins I, when he did not even weigh that after packing on muscle to fight at lhw, where come fight night he was around 176-178 lbs
2: The only interviews you can use in debates are ones you can post up, otherwise they are irrelevant.

No.

He said he came into the ring just under 175 lbs. Just under 175 lbs could mean anything from 171-174 lbs

Jones Used Speed To Topple Toney The Ibf Super-middleweight Championship Was On The Line. Roy Jones May Have Won More, However.

Minus 4 lbs for clothes puts Jones at 174 lbs at smw. If he is coming into the ring at 174 at smw then he is going to come into the ring even lighter at mw.